Living with dh bordeline personality disorder with narscissitic tendencies

[Mrswhiskerson]

Dh has been diagnosed with boderline personality disorder with narcissitic tendencies which explians a lot of his recent behaviour he is glad he has a diagnosis and feels enlightened as to why he behaves like he does and he wants to work on changing for the better.

I want the marriage to work and to be healthy so I was wondering if anyone has experiance as to how to deal with this and if anyone knows what treatment is available ?

It also can depend on whether it is 'traits' that have been identified or whether it is an actual disorder. There is quite a lot of overlap between BPD and PTSD for example, it is a very unprecise science in my understanding.

i've just looked it up. ratherordinary you might be right...

according to what i'm reading here.... and my interpretation of the information... the revisions will place what we currently call NPD under "Antisocial/Dyssocial Type"
www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=16

and BPD will remain under "Borderline Personality Disorder"
www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=17

hmmmm.

well OP... i think you need to clarify what the diagnosis is. did the diagnosing person talk to you about this directly? or did your H tell you what his diagnosis is?

sorry

www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=16

www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=17

No, look. The origin of the descriptor "borderline" is Victorian. At that time, people exhibiting symptoms of BPD were thought to be on the 'borderline' between psychotic and normal. Fair enough, it can present that way. Then Personality Disorders began to be identified more closely, leading to differential diagnoses. What they have in common is a sense of other people as somewhat two dimensional and a facility for imaginatively interpreting real events as something else. BPD includes those characteristics

All PD means is a very rigid personality. Most of us can be narcissistic, cruel, dissociated, dependent, insightful, hard, soft, domineering, submissive, etc, etc - within the course of a single day. The healthy human personality is a fluid thing; knowing how we can move from one state to another gives us understanding (empathy) for other people when they are in one of those states.

Personality disordered people lack this fluidity. They only have one or two 'sides' to their personality - hence the name 'personality disorder'. There is limited ability to move between states and an absence of comprehension that others feel everything we do feel. In the less aggressive PDs, this can be moderated with medication and therapy. It's unknown whether the more aggressive ones could be so moderated, as the sufferers have no real desire (or incentive) to change.

Since the development of PET scans, it has been proved that sociopaths (a blanket term for Cluster B) have abnormally 'shaped' brains. That is, the activity in the brain and correlating area size are different from those of a 'non'. A genetic component has also been identified.

Calling PDs an 'illness' that can be treated is a bit like saying a person born with one wasted leg is the same as someone who's broken their leg in an accident. The same therapies might help them both to function better. But one will return to full leg function, while the other remains impaired.

sorry, much x-post.

I said I wasn't going to get involved in this!

I just want to re-iterate what others have said- please please please get help for your son in terms of therapy (and yourself, but particulary your son). My mum has NPD and it has damaged me for life basically.

Also, its like what others have said- these people don't see others as valid human beings- one of the key characteristics is that they can't empathize and when you think about it, it is such a vital, normal, human trait and to not have it is quite incredible really.

And you can never change them. You will never be able to make them see your point of view.

Now I've had my tea and calmed down some what....

I've had alot of experience with BPD and people with that PD people can most certainly get better, in fact most do. It takes time and hard work but a person can get better to the point that they definitely no longer meet the diagnosis.

NPD is the hardest one to deal with as the first step in any treatment is insight and the PD suffer to learn to hold onto that insight, something NPD makes particularly difficult, but I can't stress this enough, NOT IMPOSSIBLE. NPD (or it's other name 'antisocial personality disorder' [APD]) can be treated in a similar fashion to BPD (in fact many therapies such as DBT work for both) and patients, though often more difficult than BPD patients, can make significant progress.

To also clarify a point: Brian structure is malleable. It's not fixed and can be changed at any stage in life. So someone with a underdeveloped Amygdala can develop it with talking therapies and emotional support from those around them.

Giving up on people with PD's helps nobody and can significantly damage someone with a PD's chances of recovery. I have seen recovers set back years due to relatives giving up on someone they are supposed to love unconditionally.

Also garlicbutter a PD is like a broken leg, your not born with a PD, it's usually a reaction to early childhood experiences and can be fixed.

NPD isn't the same thing as APD.

I have been watching this thread and it has reaffirmed to me why I tell so few people abut my diagnosis.

I do not have a narcissist disorder but do have strains of a personality disorder meeting many of the criteria. I very much wanted to change and have responded very well to therapy. I have 2 very happy children and a third on the way and a very happy marriage. I have a good career, a wide circle of friends and a good relationship with my extended family. I certainly do empathise with people, in fact my disorder leads me to worry too much about hurting people rather than the reverse. The one trait that I have not managed to beat is that I am desperate to please and have quite low self confidence. I certainly do not think the world revolves around me and I am not manipulative - although in the past I was emotionally manipulative with my dh as like most BPD I was terrified of being alone so I would try and trick my husband into situations in which he would have to prove his love to me. I did the same with my parents growing up. I know this was wrong and am not wishing to excuse such behaviour, rather to explain why I resorted to acting in such a way. I have never ever done this with my children .

I did not choose to be this way but am a victim of childhood abuse who never learnt as a child to manage emotional relationships. So I had to learn as an adult , I was very lucky that I met my husband who was able to see through some of my difficult behaviour ( which I totally accept responsibility for ) and saw a person who was hurting and struggling. Whilst it was not my husband's job to "cure " me he certainly played his role in helping me learn that I was going about love in the wrong way. We went through years of therapy before having children, although treatment was not as it is now and back then we had to pay, whereas now help is more freely available . I struggled when my son was born because being a parent was a new kind of relationship that I had to learn and a new form of selflessness. Again I wanted to change and I did.

Therapy has made me very aware of my behaviour and I have learned to change because of the support of the people around me and my determinism not to be the kind of monster people are posting about on this thread.

Could I be a better wife , yes of course. Could I be a better mother? Yes, but I am sure most of us could say that.

NPD is not APD

not a monster - by definition if you are self aware you are not a narc!

Squash - is that it then? your proof?

People have been posting about personality disorders in general.

Before I had therapy I was quite unaware of my behaviour , I knew I was crap at relationships but did not have insight into why.

Nature v nurture ummm I thought it was 50/50?

Not all neglected or abused dc grow up to have PDs etc and also some of the most nurtured dc have PD when they grow up.

So have they proven it is childhood experiences only then squash.i do you have links to research or articles about the research that it is this case as I didn't realize? Very interesting! I never realized they discovered the cause and total genetic cause ruled out! Wow!

I do Do you squash have links to research or articles about the research....

Squash APD is distinct from NPD. They are both Cluster B disorders, like BPD, but they are different from one another. APD = what most people call a "psychopath" in common parlance.

it sounds like you're basing your view mostly on your exposure to BPD, and in that case, i can see why you got so het up about people talking about walking away. BPD can sometimes be treated yes. i know people with BPD and yes, some do have insight into their condition, and therefore hope of recovery. and the support of family can help with that.

i don't agree with you re: NPD though. NPD is VERY different from BPD and doesn't respond to the same therapies at all. they are universes apart (which is why the OP's H's diagnosis sounds strange)
if you're confusing NPD with APD, perhaps that's why you've got that view though? (that they respond to the same therapy?)

thing is, if you can get an NPD sufferer to admit they have a disorder, i would venture to say that the sufferer has been incorrectly diagnosed. having insight = not having NPD, basically.

and how can you succeed in therapy without being able to accept you need therapy?

and so... how can a spouse help a sufferer who is unable to accept they need help, or correction of any kind? kwim?

I was told that they were not sure how much was nature and how much was nurture. I think others in my family have personality disorders , possibly even narcissistic . But as my parents also grew up in unloving, abusive chaotic homes it is difficult to work out what is nature and what is repeated poor nurturing.

Unfortunately there's alot of confusion caused by people trying to use the DSM in a country which does not use it. ASD, NPD, BPD and HPD are all cluster B's in the DSM, however in the European version are all unstable emotional disorder variants, hence the confusion. They're not as pigeon-holed as most people like to make out, ie: not distinct, more variations on a theme.

seaofyou: I never said it was the only factor and the exclusive cause, but it is the strongest known factor. the vast vast majority of people with a PD suffered childhood abuse, be that sexual, physical, emotional or any combination of those. It may not even be systematic abuse but a one off incidence. There are genetic factors that seem to have an influence on how people cope with these events, though the role these factors play is little understood. Suffice to say that PD's are not a genetic disease.

NotAMonster I'm sorry that there are still such hateful people around and I hope all the best for you.

oh i see, you all use a different diagnostic set then? i didn't know that. i am not in the UK btw. not sure if OP is or not? maybe the diagnosis she heard makes sense under a european model...

do you guys use the ICD? or what? i want to look it up and see how it differs.

Oh, I'm more confused now. Does the UK not use the DSM, Squash? Is there a separate European DSM? Could you link to that, please?

X post, Oik. Maybe light is about to shine on this!

ratherordinary

FWIW, here's the ICD classification:
apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/F60-F69

borderline falls under "Emotionally unstable personality disorder"

but narcissistic falls under a totally separate category: "Other specific personality disorders"

sooooo.... it seems the ICD classifies N as an entirely specific disorder, whereas B falls into a "cluster" of a sort, along with aggressive and explosive disorders. (?) or maybe i don't know how to read this thing

oikopolis In the UK we use chapter V of the ICD, which is the section on mental disorders. This is of particular interest as the ICD classifies and treats PD's significantly differently to the DSM, whereas for most other mental health conditions they are in general agreement.

Here's the wiki page :en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICD-10_Chapter_V:_Mental_and_behavioural_disorders

PD's are in F60 to F69 and you will note that the classifications are rather different and that the ICD has disorders that don't exist in the DSM. Also that only the disorders with a F code next to them are listed disorders, the other mentions are the DSM nearest equivalents where a similar condition has a different name, such as Emotionally unstable personality disorder having BPD underneath it even though BPD does not itself appear in chapter V of the ICD.

No, Squash, they're not pigeon holes, they're on a spectrum just like autism and, in fact, any human behaviour pattern.

I'm surprised to hear the UK doesn't use the DSM. Would that be across the entire medical field, then? How would a patient cope who, for example, had pernicious anaemia in one country, when they moved to another country?

Evidence is mounting very quickly regarding both the genetic component and the brain 'shape'. Given that both genetic sequencing and PET are new sciences - and expensive - samples have been limited to populations which are easy to categorise (prisoners; psychiatric in-patients) but findings already look solid and research is expanding very quickly.

Common sense would tell you that some children are more susceptible to damage by dysfunctional adults than others. It would also confirm that some 'psycho' adults seem to have emanated from stable & functional backgrounds. The genetic research aims to find out whether some inherited factor makes some children more susceptible or predisposed. So far, it's saying Yes.

Brain 'shape' is a different matter. Nobody can say whether the predisposition determines the anomaly or subsequent experiences shape it. That is, it's impossible to say if a person with the 'sociopath' gene is destined to develop the abnormal brain 'shape'. Early experiences might cause it in someone without the gene. A nurturing environment might avoid it in someone who has the gene ... although current evidence suggests the latter is not so. Somebody with the gene and the brain 'shape' might develop a fully-rounded personality: again, this is unknown.

There's a lot we don't know about the CNS and mind. Some people undergo a total personality change after a severe head trauma (that was the principle behind lobotomy therapy and trepanning.) Some don't. ECT can effect beneficial changes in some patients; others just get worse. We simply don't know. However, there is 150 years' worth of documentation to show that, barring severe physical brain trauma, individuals with aggressive personality disorders do not change with treatment. They just get more clever.

In essence, Narcissists and psychopaths have no motivation to change. They consider themselves superior to other people and are relatively free of self-doubt, except during 'moments of lucidity' and mood crashes. On the whole, they are successful in what they do and get a lot of fun out of it. It looks like a strange way to live from the outside, but perfectly acceptable from the disordered individual's pov.

xpost again

Dh saw a psychiatrist who said to me directly dh has symptoms of borderline personality disorder with possible (and she said she felt reluctant to use this word) narcissitic tendencies and to google both conditions and let her know how much of it we identified with.

Dh is open to treatment he has been going to the dr since he was a teen saying there was something not right with him and always got sent away with anti depressants which always had bad side effects.

He had bouts of what seemed like depression occaisonally mostly if he was stressed out .

He has told me he would not blame me if I left him and is sorry for all the pain he has caused and has huge guilt (but still repeats the same behaviours ) which wr have talked about and he is begining to recognise his triggers and has been backing off when he feels the anger or over reaction bubbling up
this us always worse when he hasn't had much sleep and he has barely had a good nights sleep for two years, when he does sleep he has awful nightmares and I can feel him thrashing about in bed.

He was emoitionally negelected all his childhood life and abused by a man which to this day his family brush under the carpet. He and I know this is no excuse for his behaviour and he knows I will walk if things don't improve.

I made him move out for a week and he said all he could think about was how he was driving away the people he loved the most and is desperate for help he has asked me not to hide his condtion from friends and family .

He can feel compassion towards others he always sticks up for the underdog and has never ever once pressurised me for sex and has always been a gentle considerate lover , if I turn him down he never reacts badly or anything like that.

The side to him which has been damaged or not developed is his ability to deal with stress and authority he has very high standards when he is going through a bad patch which no one can live up to when he snaps out of it he can see how this is not right and is then burdened with guilt over things he may have said to people .

His parents cannot accept the fact he had a hard childhood both were suffering nervous breakdowns and his siblings all have issues .

He needs help he does not need to be written off as a evil narc just yet but he does have deep seated issues and is repeating some of the negative behaviour he experienced as a child , and cannot deal well when our ds has a tantrum or behaves in a attention seeking way .

Ds almost died last year due to an illness and we got the blame even though it was absolutely not our fault dh got a lot of abuse off his family when we were in hospital and now he is becoming obsessed with germs fearing ds will get Ill again , I have pointed out this obsession with germs will affect ds in the future.
What do we do? Dh can't sleep ever especially after a therapy session he has been pumped full of anti ds and has never had a supportive family he feels he has nowhere to turn and is now pushing me and ds away and I will have to go as I can't have ds affected by this.
It is breaking my heart I know dh is not a monster but he is damaged .
Sorry if this is rambly .

I have had a look at the links they have been very helpful thank you.

Ps it might be worth me mentioning he has completely given up alcohol as he did not like how he behaved after a drink he has not had one drop for four months even when tempation has been right under his nose.

My ex partner was diagnosed with NPD after going to the doctors and telling them that he was bi-polar as he had decided that he didn't fit the 'depression model' but had used depression as being his excuse for being a nasty controlling bastard and me telling him I couldn't cope with living with him any longer unless he got professional help -his GP refered him to the mental health team, he was diagnosed, didn't agree with the diagnosis, all the MHT were idiots and he knew better than them and we split up 6 months later before I ended up having a breakdown

he always lived in 'the world according to workshy's ex' -if he said that was how the world worked, or this was going to happen, then it must be true because he said so!
when we were house hunting he was putting in offers 30% below asking price and then ranting and raving about the greedy idiots that didn't know the true value of their house etc etc
he would stand over me while I was washing up instructing me as I did it differently to him so it was obviously wrong (I'm trying to blank out the rest but it gives you an idea)

I stood by my ex -wanting to help him through whatever was wrong for 12 years, and I continued trying for another 6 months after is diagnosis -the problem was, he wasn't trying. He always said that people would only ever know about him what he wanted them to know about him and as a result he was a fantastic actor and lied consistently -if you asked 5 different people to describe him then you would get 5 different descriptions -and he fooled me many many times because I wanted to believe that he was trying, that he wasn't abusive and life wasn't all about him (we had 2 dcs together)

if the OP wants to work with her DH, to support him then she shouldn't be flamed for doing so but please OP -take a step back and look at his behaviour -how much is down to his mental health, how much is he now excusing his behaviour by his diagnosis, and how much impact is it having on you -you have to look after yourself in this situation -you can't fix him