DP just been very agressive with DS

[laurel123]

I don't know what to do, basically DP has completely lost it with DS (11) this morning. DP overheard DS calling me a twat and being aggressive towards me, ( I was trying to get him ready for school) DS has been pushing the boundaries lately but when he finishes his strops he will apologise and have a cuddle .Now I know DS should not speak to me or behave like that but I think DP reaction is totally over the top. He pushed him around grabbed him by the neck and screaming in is face, he threatened to take him to the top of the garden and "beat him to death" if he ever spoke to me like that again. I have managed to calm things down and DS is now off to school but obviously very upset, my heart is breaking for him. I am just sitting here a bit shell shocked and very upset. I have told DP that his behaviour is totally over the top, yes I agree DS should not speak to me like this but this is all wrong. I have told DP if DS speaks to someone at school he could find himself arrested. What would you do? I need to think calmly. I am not scared of DP and he is not an aggressive normally, I know when he calms down he is going to be mortified. I just want some thoughts on the best way to handle this.

This essay post is to Laurel but, really I hope you've hidden your thread now. Mumsnet is unparalleled in its collective womanly wisdom ... and wherever you find wise women, you also find 'tricoteuses'.

I've twice posted threads about personal issues important to my life at the time: I'd say that half my replies were helpful and represented the experienced guidance I was looking for (averaging; one thread was more inflammatory than the other.) AnyFucker, bless her anyfucking heart, posted on both with loads of perception. I've taken on the wise viewpoints I sought, ignored the rest and let my threads die.

People who shout at OPs are, mostly, cartoonising the issue because it triggers their sensitive points. That's not to diminish their perspective, nor what they say. But no thread, other than their own, is about them. If we can understand why they're so exercised, and recognise its relevance, then we are the ones who deserve credit for empathy - despite them.

You strike me as a very sensible, feet-on-the-ground, emotionally sorted woman. That episode must have knocked you for six. Please don't underplay its significance. Sometimes we have to face stark evidence that our life is not quite what we thought it was - then we have to go through some processes [eek]. Nobody's underestimating what's entailed! But some write as if it were all cut and dried. Of course it isn't.

Things can go tits-up for a variety of reasons; many of us know those reasons. The more you post, the more clues we'll gain as to where you need to look for a solution. Some of us have been there again and again

Children's services don't rush in and turn troubled families into fairytales. They've got experience and perspective. So has mumsnet, by and large. You just need to filter your replies for relevance & common sense

no-one said OP should leave her DP
no-one said she should report her DP to SS
no-one said this was or was comparable to sustained abuse

poster have been replying with suggestions for solutions on how OP can deal with this.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Many posts to the tune of "he would be out of the door"

Ott post suggesting mumsnet takes a collective safeguarding role and report the op, ok nobody has said she should report him to ss, I stand corrected.

This is described on several posts as "serious" abuse, it is a one off abusive incident that any professional would have a duty to refer if disclosed, but would likely not meet social care thresholds.

The op has proposed a perfectly appropriate solution, but some posters have been haranguing her because she is not updating enough/doing things quickly enough for their liking.

...and making assumptions that because she is not providing a live feed that she is turning a blind eye/not going to raise it/let the matter drop.

threatening to beat a child to death whether the intention to do so is there or not is serious abuse. threatening to kill anyone is serious. the police take it seriously.

OP's absence on the thread wasn't what was causing people's concern it was her post earlier in the day saying that she hadn't spoken to her DP yet and would wait until he was calm. it was the fact that he waltzed in with fish and chips and had neither acknowledged or been made to acknowledge what he did. it was the fact that he was pretending everything was normal and going over the top with niceness that was worrying people that it was being brushed under the carpet and not dealt with.

1 poster suggested reporting to SS her/himself.

The (most) people who have been called vultures are those who have had the benefit of hindsight.

People who have done the brushing off, and waited until he was calmer.

People who once wanted to see the best in such men.
That's why we recognise the danger signs.

We have had to take a cold look at our men, and yes we may do it now at other men.

If this was a neighbour the op would have gone to the police asap even if he had been a long standing friend and out of character.
Why is it allowed to a father?
I mean, why is it not dealt with immediately?

I do hope last night all was sorted.

Otherwise, I feel sorry and worry about this child, and about the op herself.
Because if this instance was out of character what happens next time?

"That's why we recognise the danger signs."

I think the posters on the other side of the fence, whilst appreciating that those who have come from abuse have a certain perspective, worry that this experience colours those posters' view of ALL relationships. This can lead to those people being be very quick to shout abuse over what may be part of a normal, healthy relationship.

And I don't agree that the op would have necessarily gone to the police if she had heard it over the garden fence. If I knew the family, and didn't have any prior concerns, I wouldn't have done....

I meant if a neighbour had done this to the DS.

And likewise, BrownJoy, posters like me who know the warning signs of abuse (and of co-dependency in OPs) consider that "oh it's not so bad" posters like you enable abuse to continue, and to escalate.

Because that's how abuse goes.

And holding your son round the neck and threatening to beat him to death is way past being a "warning sign" of abuse: it IS abuse. And very very serious.

This can lead to those people being be very quick to shout abuse over what may be part of a normal, healthy relationship.

Fuck, I'm in that parallel universe again, you know, the one where grabbing a child around the neck and threatening to kill him is part of a normal, healthy relationship.

And I'm a poster on the 'safe' side of the fence ;)

Garlic's 22:04 post sums it up very well: we all project when we read OPs and respond to them. Because all of us observe and analyze the world around us through the prism of our own experience.

The posters who define situations in OPs as abuse have for the most part experienced it.

The posters who can't see it live in a world without abuse because that's what matches their experience.

And then there are plenty who deny abuse in OPs because they prefer to remain in denial about elements in their own history.

We all come at it with our own baggage. Our baggage can be very valuable, though.

Nobody is saying the incident was ok. But defining the ops relationship as unhealthy because of one incident is way ott.

For your information, I have experienced abuse and I also work in that area. I just don't project.

The thing is, Rhino, if the father had apologised immediately, or upon returning home, if the OP had felt ok to talk about it with her DP that very night, etc, etc, I don't think most people would be concerned.

It does seem that people do have different threshold levels.

This man's attitudes would probably be my threshold. I don't say leave (not now), but I do hope some serious response has taken place. At the very least that any repeat would see me leave with the children.

No one has replied yet if this should have been dealt in the same manner if it had been done to the wife, or if a neighbour had done it to the child.
I'd really like to know.

Just read the whole thread and think just about everything I'd say has been said already. Really for the ds and incredibly saddened by the number of posters who think this sort of behaviour is ok. For the 'well me and everyone I know got beaten half to death by our parents and it made us upstanding citizens' camp - I had a very aggressive father, almost never physically (if that makes it any better!), but often verbally and I've turned out to be an upstanding member of the community. BUT I have likewise wonderful well behaved friends who (if I take their word for it) DIDN'T have aggressive parents AND they don't feel the need to go to anger management courses as I have, not because I threatened to kill my dc, but because my own parenting has left me with so many issues dealing with anger.

And it's splitting hairs to the extreme to say that we can treat our children with less respect than adults just because we have to bring them up and mould them. A teacher has to mould 30 minds at once - if they dished out death threats would that be ok? I hope to give my dc the same level of respect that I give my dp and other adults, even if that shows in different ways, and ultimately I would treat them with the same consequences, only they'd show differently, with MORE sympathy towards the child, not less, as they're not fully developed so not as accountable as an adult. Eg;

If my 6-yr old child hit me I'd see they weren't 100% responsible for their actions and be lenient, making them go to their room and having serious words. If my dp hit me I'd call the police and they'd be locked away in a room, to have VERY serious words.

If my dc were getting drunk repeatedly I'd confiscate any alcohol, have a serious chat and ground them. If my dp was doing it I'd throw any alcohol away, have very serious chats and lock him out if need be.

Adults and children SHOULD be treated in the same way - the acceptable actions and acceptable consequences will vary but what's ok for one should be ok for the other in a varied form. Violence is never ok for an adult so why is any varied form ok for a child?

Garlic that post should be edited to fit all threads of a difficult/contentious personal nature and used as a sticky.

For me it's the 'beating to death' line.

I just can't see how anyone, even in the throes and red mist of fury, could say that to an 11 year old child. It's the violence of the language.

I can't get past it and nor can lots of people on this thread.

Rhinosaurus - the OP has said her P has a "short-fuse" and she has had to "step-in" on previous occasions, this doesn't appear to be a one-off, OP just couldn't intervene in time. That is what bothers me, the most. A one-off, followed by a swift recognition that the P's behaviour was absolutely unacceptable would be one thing but that isn't the case here according to the OP.

I say that as another poster from the 'safe side' who also has a short-fuse.

OP - sorry meant to say, I hope your conversation went well last night and that all this discussion is a bit moot now.

Thank you, HotDAMN and Hilly.

It seems to need constantly repeating that bullies choose to bully. Would Mr Laurel grab his boss by the throat; scream in his/her face; threaten to take them outside and beat them to death? I doubt it. He did it to his 11-year-old child because he thinks he can get away with it. He chose to do it :(

That's a good point, dolly.
It seems that it is "escalating" rather than being a one off.

I don't think anyone has a one off of this nature. There is often something behind it and, unfortunately, it's usually likely to get worse unless the person really is shocked by his/her own actions.

I just hope that our musings are all academic now, indeed, for the better. :)

I am not scared of DP and he is not an aggressive normally, I know when he calms down he is going to be mortified.

The OP said he is not aggressive normally in her first post.
She has said she sometimes has to step in, she has not said this has happened before. Step In for what? Dad attempting to discipline whilst mum wants to give kisses and cuddles? Possibly, it sounds like their parenting styles are in conflict. Or step in because the dad is going to physically assault the son? She has not said, so how can we assume what she means?

• the child was calling his mother a twat - disrespectful on a number of levels, the child needs consistent parenting from both mum and dad, with boundaries and consequences, and positive reinforcement - not mixed messages.

• the father overheard the child calling his mother a twat and lost his temper, and overreacted in a totally inappropriate and abusive manner.

• the mother is going to make it known that this was unacceptable at an appropriate time, as judged by her. Some people respond better after they have had time to reflect, she would know this after being married to him for 18 years.

One abusive incident does not make for an unhealthy relationship or mean that the perpetrator is going to carry on doing it/escalate it. That is a ridiculous assumption.

One off angry outburst = loss of control due to a trigger.

Abusive ongoing "unhealthy" relationship = great deal of control and manipulation exercised by the perpetrator - how else would they hide the abuse from everyone but the victim unless they had self control?

often the abuse is hidden/normalised by the victim also...i think that is why people are concerned.

Rhino, would you not wonder how this man could "lose control" in front of his wife & child, but retain control when faced with a similar trigger outside the home? If some oik swore at Laurel in Sainsbury's car park, do you think he would grab them by the neck and threaten to kill? No, because he might get arrested ... So he has control, he just chose not to exercise it for his child's sake.

Rhinosaurus - OP's post 20th March at 12.59 - "he can be short tempered, I have found myself stepping in to calm things down but this was well over the top."

No one has said that the OPs son wasn't out of order but the OP has stated several times in the thread that she has been dealing with it (sanctions etc) in a consistent way. I think it's also worth remembering that the son wasn't shouting or swearing directly at his mum nor was he physically assaulting her . He was stomping around the house and muttering under his breath. I have to say that is pretty typical 11 year old 'big man' behaviour and frankly if that's all it takes to make him lose control to the point of making threats to kill and throttling his son then his behaviour probably does need addressing.

I have not said the OPs relationship is unhealthy, I have not accused her DP of systematic abuse nor have I suggested that she "leave the bastard". I have said that his behaviour was shocking and that he needs to apologise and show some understanding of that.

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