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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I really want this to work.

186 replies

Marie229 · 01/03/2012 19:33

I'm going to start from the beginning. I started dating my boyfriend 3 years ago when he and his now ex-wife were separated. I know he went through a lot of trauma/hesitation deciding whether he made the right decision to separate/divorce because of his young son. I've always seen him as a very involved and sensitive father.

He ultimately decided that divorce was his best option. The way he described it to me was that he felt like he couldn't be himself in the relationship. He felt he married the wrong person. He was very unhappy and not-at-all in love. There was constant fighting and friction. He felt that his son would ultimately benefit from the split.

I know, believe me I know, that I shouldn't have gotten involved with him while he was still married to his ex wife. I regret it deeply (hind sight is truly 20/20). The only thing I can say is that I fell in love with this man. It was a love unlike anything I'd ever experienced (I'd only had one other boyfriend that lasted 8 years.) He was highly intelligent, very good looking, sensitive, receptive, and so many other things. What I adored most, though, was how we both viewed relationships. We both felt relationships should come first-- before parents, kids, jobs, passions, everything. We felt that the relationship was the foundation for everything else good. For example, if the husband/wife were happy and in love, then the children would be happy and well-adjusted. We had similar views on so many of life's questions. I felt it was a soul-to-soul meeting. I know that sounds silly, but I was truly head-over-heals for this guy. I ruined my reputation by dating him (because he wasn't yet divorced), and it didn't matter to me at all. I felt I needed to follow my heart.

Three years have now gone. I don't know what's going on anymore. I've only met his parents once, and I've only met his son once (about a month ago). I've asked (nearly begged) to be a bigger part of his life. At one point he told me, "What did you expect fooling around with a married man?" Another time he told me, "I can't introduce my son to some girlfriend." It feels like the only times he acknowledges my feelings is when I break up with him. When I try to talk to him, I feel like he gets angry. When he gets angry, I feel mistreated, and I break up with him. I've broken up with him numerous times. It's probably been three dozen times. Every time we break up, he apologizes, and I truly believe he means it. But then I get told that it's my fault that the relationship hasn't progressed because I break up with him every time there's a problem. Maybe I am being unrealistic. I can't tell anymore. I know that I don't feel heard, and that I feel uncared for and unloved when I try to bring something up. Maybe I should just understand that he'll react defensively. I've also reacted defensively.

Let me go into detail about the last few times we've argued....

I only see him on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, and Sundays because he has his son on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays. I don't always get to see him on my days, though, because his son is involved in Boy Scouts, soccer, baseball, and church. He is an awesome dad and rarely misses anything. I also can only see him until about 7 or 7:30 at night S-TH because he gets up at 3:30 AM to work out for two hours before work. Well, I look forward to Friday evenings with him because he stays a little longer. He doesn't stay that much longer, though, because he likes to go grocery shopping Saturday mornings around 6am before anyone gets there. OK, so this particular Friday evening, he decided to skip his son's soccer practice. Our relationship had really been suffering, so he felt we needed the extra time together. It made me feel like he was really making an effort for us, but I felt badly about him missing soccer practice. This was only the second time in three years that he missed a soccer practice, and he has never missed a soccer game. I made stuffed chicken and had wine, and we were really having a nice time together talking and connecting. At about 6:00, his ex-wife texted him telling him he was an awful father for choosing his girlfriend over his son (she used a lot of curse words and name calling, too.) He read the text to me and sat down on the couch. I could tell he was questioning whether there was truth in the text. He asked me if he was a bad father, and I told him that he wasn't. The whole mood of our evening shifted from that point on. I felt guilty that he missed soccer practice and because he was questioning whether he was a good dad. He completely disconnected from me, so we just started watching TV together. He calls his son every night at 8PM to tell him goodnight. Every night, he can't get a hold of his ex-wife. Sometimes, I think she does it on purpose to tick him off, and sometimes I think she's just really scatter-brained. Anyway, he gets furious every Friday night at 8 when he can't get a hold of his son. This particular Friday night, he was pacing the floor, criticizing his ex, and redialing about every 30 seconds. This happens every Friday night. I can tell you that leading up to 8 PM, I start to feel sick because I'm dreading the goodnight call. I don't know if his ex is going to answer and they're going to start yelling at each other, or if she's not going to answer, or if he's going to be disappointed when his son only wants to talk for a few minutes. Also, he gets angry because his ex and their son are usually always out, and he feels they should be at home getting ready for bed at 8PM. So, on this Friday night, after he finally did get to talk to his son, I calmly suggested that he stop the 8pm goodnight calls. He looked offended. I went on to explain how it always seems like a disappointment to him. He's either getting angry at his ex or angry because his son isn't at home in bed. I also explained how it's not really a bonding experience since his son is always ready to get off the phone after a couple minutes. I told him how it makes me feel like our time together is ruined and how much I look forward to our Friday nights. Well, you would have thought I slapped him in the face. He was furious with me. He felt I wanted to limit his time with his son. He was offended that I implied that I was the only one who looked forward to our Friday nights. I started crying. He stormed out of my house angry. He hates when I cry. He told me in the past that my crying is a form of manipulation. I broke up with him the next morning because I felt so hurt and uncared for. I told him how his anger and bad moods are affecting our lives, and how I don't want to live the rest of my life in his misery. He emailed me and texted all of these wonderful insights and promises, and we got back together after two weeks apart.

The first night we're back together is another Friday night. We talk and laugh and connect. I feel like everything is going to work out after two weeks apart. We make love. He gets up to leave immediately after. I'm hurt, and he asks why I'm hurt. I tell him that I don't want him to leave. I ask him to stay. He tells me he never expected to make love our first night back together, and he didn't plan on staying. He tells me he's confused by why I wanted to have sex in the first place. He leaves. I'm angry because we've had this same situation a number of times in the past, and he knows I'm hurt by it. The next morning I tell him I was hurt. He's defensive. He points out to me again that he had no intention of staying. He doesn't want to be out that late because he gets up early to go grocery shopping. He points out that I never stay at his house. He points out that I like to sleep in until 8, and he likes to get up at 5. All of these things are true. But I just feel like they're stretched. The reason I don't stay at his house is because I have a little dog, and it's not allowed at his house. I can't abandon my dog over night all alone-- especially after being at work all day long. He says that's an excuse I have. And the sleeping in until 8 is not true. I usually get up at 7, but I would happily get up at 5 with him and make breakfast. He makes me feel unloved when he does this, and then he gets angry at me for feeling that way. He says I imply that he only uses me for sex. I know he doesn't use me for sex. I truly believe he doesn't. He just really is obsessive about the schedule he keeps. I just don't understand how he doesn't recognize that his behavior is hurtful to me. So, again, I got angry with him and told him to leave me alone. We got back together, this time, the following Sunday.

On Sunday, I went over to his house. We were lying on his couch holding each other talking about our lives. I expressed discontent with my current job (we have the same types of job). I told him how I've been thinking about going back to school. I told him about how I really search for meaning in our jobs. Before I said any of this, I told him that I didn't want to offend him because I knew he liked our jobs. We talked openly and nicely. I felt wonderful after our talk and time together. Later that night, he called me put me down for talking negatively about our jobs. He asked if I could ever respect him since I wanted a different career and he was satisfied in the one we had. He said he was insulted day after day by his ex because she didn't have any respect for our jobs, either. I reassured him repeatedly that this was my issue, and that I loved that he loved his job. He kept questioning me and questioning me. I kept apologizing. Finally, I just hung up on him. The next morning, he didn't call me like he usually does. Around lunch time, I texted him that I was sorry and tried to explain things again. That night, I called him and apologized again. He told me I was hypocrite. I didn't understand. He went on to explain how I had broken up with him for two weeks because of his anger and discontent with how his ex wife treats him. He told me I'm a hypocrite for telling him that he should accept things and be happy when I'm not happy in my own life. He just kept putting me down. So, I told him to leave me alone again. We tried texting last night, but he, again, told me I was a hypocrite and asked why the things I tell him don't apply to myself. I don't think I'm being a hypocrite, but maybe I am?

I'm so confused. I really love him and want this to work.

OP posts:
ThePinkPussycat · 02/03/2012 23:21

You've had two awful sounding relationships, OP. Many on here who have done the same (including me) have something in their childhood that has led them to choose badly when it comes to men. I was wondering whether or not you fit this pattern?

Dump him, stand on your own two feet and re-find yourself. Give yourself time to process what you have learnt from these two relationships. Do not go looking for anyone else for some time. Many on here say that a Lovely Man may well turn up eventually in your life. This may or may not happen. Enjoy your Lovely Dog :)

Marie229 · 03/03/2012 01:00

I keep re-reading your post, oikopolis.....

How young were you when you first got together? How did you find your footing? What made you confident that it was right?

I'm not sure how I feel about love being cyclical. It makes sense. I'd like to think it's possible to stay engaged and present and in love.

You've made me ponder so much....

Thank you.

OP posts:
Marie229 · 03/03/2012 01:19

Pink pussycat,

I'm sure I fit the pattern. My mother has borderline personality disorder. She was physically and verbally abusive. She and my dad divorced when I was 7, and he started a new family immediately and abandoned me and my brother. My mother could never keep a job and we lived on government assistance. She had a long term boyfriend from the time i was 7 to my 20s whom she cheated on repeatedly.

OP posts:
LeBOF · 03/03/2012 01:39

The cyclical thing makes total sense to me. It's not like you fall out of love in between: it's just that life resumes in its ordinary way where you feel loved and cherished, but you don't have to spend a lot of energy stoking drama and the exclusion of all other interests so you can have sex four times a day etc. But you can still have nights on the sofa where you stay up for hours and have gooey conversations about how you first met and all that.

What makes you confident that it's right is the fact it's just not the bloody hard work you are talking about. The day to day stuff is characterised by humour, enjoying each other's company, and feeling completely at home and safe- not arguing and breaking up every few weeks, and regularly having each other in tears and second-guessing what's going on.

SorryMyLollipop · 03/03/2012 07:04

Brilliant post Oiko

HepHep · 03/03/2012 10:57

oikopolis, your posts have really helped to bring clarity to some of my own situations, past and present. Thank you so much :)
OP, been there. I know how hard it is. But you can't stick around and have them destroy you, it's not right. Listen to oik, she knows her stuff.

garlicbutter · 03/03/2012 11:47

I can't better Oiko's post but wanted to reiterate what someone said earlier. You're trying to change him, and to change yourself, in hopes of making this a functional, nourishing relationship. Do you see that, if he were to change, you'd be in your relationship with a different person? If you change yourself, you won't know who you are (this is probably why you feel lost right now) and he'll be in a relationship with a different woman.

It doesn't make sense to try and fashion new people from the ones you are. What does make sense is to recognise that, whenever you think "If only he could be ... more empathetic /laid-back /secure /etc ..." you are stating what you seek in a partner, and acknowledging that he doesn't match up. This is OK.

Your upbringing has taught you that love is an elusive, ever-changing thing for which you must suffer. It made you hanker for the unconditional love & acceptance every child should know, but sadly your parents were unequipped to provide. This is why, I imagine, you idealise love and simultaneously believe it will hurt you. When you state your real-world, adult requirements, with your 'if only's, you're doing something very healthy; be proud!

What your childhood should have taught you - but didn't - is your right to seek acceptance, consideration, care, compassion, admiration and respect in a lover. That all this, and more, is available to ordinary people, without sacrifice.
Can you see the clever, loving, passionate woman in you who KNOWS what she needs and deserves? Can you honour her by settling for no less?

Leverette · 03/03/2012 12:00

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something2say · 03/03/2012 12:03

Yes I too think there comes a time when a woman has to grow up and accept that she can't change other people. It is not her job and it won't work.

Letting go is actually very freeing. Pff!! There it went. Big deal.

I read your OP the other night, and thought of how much I enjoy a good Friday night with a man (single right now tho) - but your guy wants to go home by 8pm or whatever??? What sort of night is that for you? Being dictated to by his needs? What about what you want every now and then?

xxx Thinking of you still. x x x

ThePinkPussycat · 03/03/2012 12:09

Great post garlic, if only I had understood that way back then... OP you have a great chance to seize life, go for it!

MardyArsedMidlander · 03/03/2012 12:39

Garlic- if only I could have read your post 20 years ago Sad

One thing it has taken me a long long time to learn is that love is about accepting- but that has to be BOTH ways. It never ever works when you accept him, but he wants only to change you.

Also- if you are going to have passion- at least it should be FUN. That is, sweaty wild sex all night with the sheets wrapped round you and watching the sun come up then having to do the Walk of Shame home- not someone leaving early because he needs to get to the grocery store at 6am......

garlicbutter · 03/03/2012 12:52

Hey, if I could give myself a good talking-to 20 years ago, things would be very different now!

Loving your reminder of the dazed "walk of shame", MAM :) Happy days (well, great sex with lousy blokes!)

Hattytown · 03/03/2012 13:18

OP I think you've had some great advice here, but I just wanted to add a couple of things about your DP's motives for behaving like he does.

This is a punitive man. I think he probably lied through his teeth about how bad his marriage was, to himself as much as you. Now that he realises some of this, he wants to punish you for 'leading him astray' - hence the insults about you getting involved with a married man/having a normal sexual appetite.

It seems he won't take responsibility himself for trashing his marriage and hurting his DC, so he needs to blame you.

He is not a good dad either. He's using his son to punish his wife too. He has no right to insist that she is in waiting by the phone for his 8p.m call and he lost the right to comment on his son's bedtimes when he walked out. His wife was also right about him putting an evening with you, before his son's soccer practice. His son should come first.

I agree with everyone else's speculaton about why you're like you are and hopefully you'll take that away and do something with it. Because you can change you, but you can't change him. This relationship has no hope and you should end it. But I don't think you will until you can see him with the clarity that others can.

This is the benefit of a forum like this. Emotionally healthy posters who aren't attracted to narcissists and punishers know one when they see one. Their radar is good and they have high expectations of men and will only stay in relationships that enhance their lives. Of equal value are posts from people who know their childhood fucked them up and were once in your shoes, acting like a romance junkie who thought she could 'fix' a damaged man and believing that true love is all about drama, high-octane passion, tears and anger and will ultimately conquer every problem.

Finish the relationship and get some therapy. Don't date AT ALL until you've got rid of this romance fetish. Be on your own for a while and learn how to get your happiness and esteem from other things in your life.

something2say · 03/03/2012 13:41

I really wish people would stop saying 'But I don't think you will.'

How can you say on the one hand that she can't change him, and then tell her what to do? Plus I think it is judgmental, rude, dismissive and mean.

She knows her options and she will do what she wants to do when she wants to do it.

BTW in DV situations, it typically takes over 20 incidents before a woman will leave, and then she may try 8 times before she manages to do it for good. I know the dynamics are different here, but as an issue - how long does it take to leave and do we stay while we think it through and accept our sinking heart?? - I think are similar.

Good luck OP, thinking of you. x

oikopolis · 03/03/2012 18:55

How young were you when you first got together? How did you find your footing? What made you confident that it was right?

I was 18 when we became acquaintances, 20 when we became friends & then got together (he is 18 months older than me). We were in uni and had both travelled a bit so were a little more worldly than the ages suggest, but not by much.

We found our footing out of luck my dear! We were strongly attracted to one another, gave it a go, and luckily we were suited to one another. It's always a gamble, it's not something written in the stars, it's not fate. You will be attracted to many people in your life; you give each one a go where feasible, and the one you strike upon that fits you, that makes you feel happy and positive and makes you look forward to the future, is the one you stay with.

What made us confident... well, just recognising that we were suited to one another. We were good to each other over many years, and over time, we became more and more pleased that we had found each other. That's all it is really. We make each other happy, we meet each others needs, so why would we want to go wandering after anyone else?

Our bond is secure and I trust it, and he trusts me, because we've shown to each other that we can be trusted.

I'm not sure how I feel about love being cyclical. It makes sense. I'd like to think it's possible to stay engaged and present and in love.

You say your mother has BPD. I happen to know a bit about that disorder through personal experience. Firstly: you poor girl growing up with that sort of chaos. It must have been hellish. Secondly: I can see why you would have quite strange ideas about love if BPD is part of your childhood.

I suspect you see love as a bit of a magical thing, a redemptive thing, a very very special thing that touches individuals with a sort of otherworldly influence that's mysterious and extremely powerful. Perhaps something irresistible and uncontrollable and all-consuming and life-changing. Perhaps a spiritual thing, something that strikes like lightning, like an act of God.

I can really truly understand how you learned that. Your mother has v strange ideas about emotions, and what they mean. She thinks that when you feel something, that's reality. When you feel that pull towards another human being, that's real, because if you feel it, something cosmic must be happening. That strong emotion (like love, or hate, or distrust, or whatever) can never lie, in her view.

(She taught you this... no wonder you break up and make up. Your feelings, like everyone else's, change with the wind. But you feel powerless against them, because you believe they are telling you the truth...)

But your mother is wrong, she taught you the wrong thing. Feelings are just that, feelings. They are not reality. They represent very very little in fact. They are fleeting, fickle, as insubstantial as a snowflake. They can be the product of addiction, of the need to identify, of the fear of being alone, of the fear of judgement, of a strong subconscious pull towards someone who represents a figure from your past. They don't necessarily lead you anywhere that's good for you or will make you happy in the long term.

You can feel like heroin is your cosmic soulmate; you can feel that a man who beats seven shades of shit out of you is your God-chosen, star-made lover for life. Feelings are not real. They are frequently extremely, tragically misleading. They are not things to base your life on. I think you are basing very much of your reaction to your current relationship on your moment-to-moment feelings, rather than on a well-thought-out, careful, compassionate understanding of what is best for you and your boyfriend in the long term.

Think of your mother's life. Where has following her moment-to-moment feelings gotten her, and you? How much better would your life have been if she had used compassion, care and long-term benefit to make decisions for you and for her? Now think of this relationship. Can you see parallels?

My feelings for my H are positive. I had a strong attraction to him, and I was lucky that those feelings didn't betray me -- he happened to be a very good man. So I could keep on going with him and build something good.

You had positive feelings for this man, you thought he was good and noble and he could love you well. You had and have a strong attraction to him. But your feelings didn't reflect reality; and that is not your fault. It's just bad luck my dear! We all fall prey to our treacherous feelings at times. After all we are earthly beings, subject to many errors. We are not clairvoyants.

When you find out that someone you had feelings for is wrong for you, what you do is, you move on.

There's no shame in it. It's the right thing to do for everyone. The more you practice doing it, the earlier you will recognise and discard relationships that aren't right for you. It's how we learn what we want and what we don't.

It's not about failing or getting it wrong! Can you see what I mean? All us humans use a process of trial and error to learn, and to find a good future for ourselves. The only failure is to CLING to something that hasn't passed the trial!

I am glad to hear that I've given you things to think about. I wish you the absolute best. You sound loving and intelligent, like you have a lot to offer the right person.

oikopolis · 03/03/2012 19:04

I'm not sure how I feel about love being cyclical. It makes sense. I'd like to think it's possible to stay engaged and present and in love.

I also wanted to say, you misunderstand what I mean.

It IS perfectly possible to stay engaged and present and in love.

What is cyclical is the burning feeling of passion. You can't feel that all the time, your bits would fall off from over-use!

I think part of your erroneous understanding of "love" is that you equate it with passion alone. But love encompasses everything that we do and feel for our beloved. So much of it is ACTION and not words or emotions.

Love is changing surgical dressings at 2am, forgiving him for not knowing what to say when you fall pregnant or when your Mum dies, turning a blind eye when he says something gauche to your friends, eating toast for lunch for three months running when one of you gets laid off or the teenager needs braces... just as much as it is lying under the stars making love all night.

I daresay that SHOWING love each other quietly, through hard times and illness, is MORE an indication of love than any word of passion.

swallowedAfly · 03/03/2012 19:37

yes - 'love is a verb' is what i remind myself. it isn't some abstract otherly thing that can coexist with not acting lovingly, not speaking lovingly etc. love is in the doing.

i also grew with a personality disordered mother - it definitely colours your emotional landscape.

i spent two pretty traumatic years with someone i felt very much 'in love' with and still had the same feelings at the point of ending the relationship. i was exhausted enough to go with my brain instead of those feelings and walk away. it felt like i was breaking my own heart leaving him but it was the right thing to do. it felt totally counter intuitive to the ideas i had about love being this all transcending thing that mattered more than anything.

i still have trouble distinguishing what i feel from reality sometimes and it was good to read your well written post oik. reminders are always good.

i hope you can digest that post OP and really reflect on how this applies to you. maybe you could try writing out a sort of positives and negatives list of your relationship. i suspect the positives would be mostly abstract concepts and feelings and that there would be a lot of objective downsides to go on the negatives side of the list. maybe it would help to try and define what love is and give examples (for yourself i mean).

CurrySpice · 03/03/2012 22:21

Oik while I think your posts have been very inspiring, to be fair to the op, these things are never so easy when you're in the midst of them. Which, with the greatest respect to you, it sounds like you never have been. So while it's easy to speak from a great moral height, it's not always do easy to do in reality.

I realise your posts have been very popular on this thread but tbh if I were the op I'd be rolling my eyes by now.

oikopolis · 03/03/2012 22:57

jaysus I am on no moral height! i come from a v v v dysfunctional family, i was abused by my parents, raped many times starting in childhood, treated like shit by many people, i just managed to meet a nice man to marry through pure luck, that has been my bright spot in life! i have been in therapy and support groups for 12 years, all i have to offer is experience and what i learned there

apologies OP, will bow out, not trying to preach to you at all. i hope it didn't sound to you like that to you. i am not british and sometimes i misread what's appropriate on mn

and i do go on a bit, especially when i feel a connection/identification with a person. i'm sorry.

joblot · 03/03/2012 23:09

Don't bow out, your input is good and thorough and has a right to be here. Let people disagree, don't though take that as more valid than your points

garlicbutter · 03/03/2012 23:11

Hang on, OP didn't say that Oiko. Just one poster did. FWIW, I disagreed with her.

Why not wait and see how Marie herself responds?

:)

joblot · 03/03/2012 23:11

For what its worth when I was in a shite relationship last year, hearing others say it was thus was really hard at first. But my am i glad they made the effort. it will be hard for this op too, so be patient

swallowedAfly · 03/03/2012 23:12

you haven't been preaching and the OP said you gave her things to think about and specifically asked you questions which so you went onto answer them with a lot of care. just because one person makes a negative comment don't take it as indicative of the whole thread or the OP herself.

garlicbutter · 03/03/2012 23:13

critical listening, oiko

:)

oikopolis · 03/03/2012 23:18

(can you tell i am pregnant?) you're right garlic i am overreacting. sorry OP pls ignore my brief yet dramatic flounce.

CurrySpice i think you sound so wise etc. so i'm disappointed i came off so badly to you.