Are relationships work?

[menopausemad]

What do you do when your marriage is crap and your partner truly believes that a good relationship is just good without any effort? When he thinks that you should not have to work at having a happy relationship? When he believes you do not need to make any effort to makes things work if you were truly meant to be together? This is after 20 plus years of marriage, an affair and total loss of trust and security. He does not think we should have to work to make things better? We are at an impasse.

you said yourself he never wants to go back to his mothers.

SAF, I read your post and thought 'no way'.

But then, I have thought lots of 'no ways' over the past few years. I feel sick. I did not go into work today (is OK am working from home not causing myself further issues) and tomorrow is my day off. We talked last night briefly about money and I trusted him totally to help me sort things out. I am being naive again aren't I?

I do not think he would manipulate boys but I do feel very despairing in some ways.

Saw the friend I have confided in again this morning for a walk. He makes few if any judgements (his relationship history is not exemplary although he is very happy with one of the nicest women in the world now) - he did caution me to consider what I was going to get arranged in black and white rather than verbally though.

I feel so sick. Think perhaps a Solicitor is more urgent than Estate Agent. Oh shit.

i would strongly recommend you get legal advice at this point.

if your children are old enough to have 'who they want to live with' given strong credence in court and they chose him then presumably, 'logically', he would need the family home and you would need to pay maintenance. also with the children being older and him being lax it's not like he'd see them as that much of a burden childcare wise.

you need to see a solicitor and you need to be very informed of ways to proceed imo.

They are old enough to make choice. Also he works from home much of the time.

I had not considered losing them at all although knew middle lad would be torn thought it was obvious he would be with me but at liberty to see dad almost as much as he would like.

Oh I don't think I can do this. I don't think I have a choice. I will not risk losing them or making them choose. I just never even considered that would be the case. I can't. I am crying a I think about proving stern (I think it was stern who siad I would not have the guts to see anything thorugh) right

You must all think I am so stupid. I did nOt consider anything more than alternate weekends without them. I did not think it through. I think I need to eat humble pie when he returns tomorrow morning and keep on plodding on. Oh fuck. I have made everything so much worse. Boys would. Be better with me. I know I am better parent. Can't let them choose though as most vulnerable boy would choose husband. I have nearly 24 hours to see if way out of this buy don't think so

Have you seen a solicitor yet? I haven't followed things that thoroughly, but you seem to be making lots of assumptions about what will and won't happen in the future, then thinking you need to make decisions right now based on stuff that may or may not happen.

It upsets me to read that you think you need to "eat humble pie" about anything.

You say you will not risk losing your children, or making them choose between you and your H (as they might not choose you.)

Thing is, whatever you do or don't do, you may still "lose" your children. You can't put a bubble around them to make them do what you want or don't want forever. You can't actually shield them from what is happening to you and the pain of their parents being in a miserable relationship.

You may feel that it's better to stick your head down, put up, shut up, remain the doormat, paint on a smile and think your children will think all is tickity boo, that they'll stay with you, that you can protect them from their father's ghastliness.

But, they are watching and learning all the time. They may work out that their father is a 24 carat dick and decide that they want nothing to do with him, or think he's great for a while then realise he's a turd. Alternatively, they could be learning that this is how relationships are "supposed" to be - men are the "Big I am" and call all the shots, women stay under the thumb, do skivvy work and are treated terribly.

My sense is the longer they experience parents in such a toxic relationship, their mother being so down and downtrodden, their father being so blase and arrogant, the more they will "normalise" this and not question it. Some day, there may be daughter in laws who experience life just as you are now.

The point is, what you do or don't do may make NO difference longer term to whether your kids stick with you or not, but the longer you stay in the situation you are in now, the greater the chance that your sons will see their father's behaviour as normal. If you don't question or challenge it, why should they think there is anything wrong with it.

Of course I fear losing my children although that was melodramatic ( just a touch).

Eldest may will leave home this year and I am excited for him. I will not lose him though I will miss him. Just adding this to help show I do know the difference, and probably chose really badly when I used the word lose earlier.

But, middle lad is a very different young man to others. If I am honest o am not sure there is anything that will ensure he completes school or even stay on the right side of the law. What I am sure about is that my insistence on knowing where he is ( yes he does lie..,) grounding him if late to school, ensuring he eats some veg etc send an unequivocal message that he is loved. He is a sensitive little thug and I truly believe that boundaries help him. I do not think he would get that living with dad. In short term I think that is why he would choose to live with dad. I think I would lose him; not meaning to imply I own him. I think he would utterly lose his way.

Younger lad will be ok whoever he chooses to spend time with. I would hate 50:50 but think he would want that and support him.

Middle lad needs to be with me on a school night.

I totally understand about the relationship lessons they are learning and need to take responsibilty for trying to be happy successful etc to try and counteract these a little.

I just had not thought it through properly at all. Letting middle son go is just not an option. I still have hope he will be a goodson one day but am certain we are looking at a rocky road to get there. I believe he needs total security and that at the moment I need to provide this. It is possible that without me doing all the dirty work and discipline husband would step up but I am not convinced about this at the moment.

Have now told brother. He would not trust husband to care for vulnerable son. His view is important as he is a very significant person in all boys lives and would willingly carry the 'burden' of being there for them come what may.

so get him out of your house (dh). let your vulnerable as you call him son see that men don't behave that way and get away with it. so far you're showing him that men can behave awfully, treat women like dirt, walk out on their responsibilities and commitments then snap their fingers and come back again when they feel like it without making up for their mistakes, etc. if he's so vulnerable why are you modelling this crap for him?

honestly it sounds like you've found a new excuse to use to prove to yourself how powerless you are and how you must do.nothing. your son.

when i point out your husband may be playing a game and manipulating you that doesn't equal - must do nothing oh and be even more passive. it equals must find out my rights and think carefully about how to proceed to get this man who is trying to drive me to despair out of my life with minimal damage.

i don't know how this equaled what it did to you except you managed to find an excuse for further passivity and pretending again that you have zero control over your life.

Harsh

Meno, I know that probably did sound harsh. But, the thread is getting very long. Several folks have come in, been supportive and sympathetic, have tried to understand your difficult situation and offered a range of ideas and insights on how you might be able to tackle some of them. They've been along with you through the ups and downs, the revelations of his behaviour and your responses.

Speaking for myself, I've never met you, but I fell bloody angry that one human being can be behaving in such a ghastly, selfish, cruel and heartless way to another human. It's not easy to read what you have written and not be affected by it. It's not easy to hear the impact this has had on your self-esteem, understanding just why you may find it so hard to act definitively, but knowing that if you don't, you could lose the lot - your physical health, your mental health, your home, every last shred of your self esteem, your children. All these are hanging by a thread here and everyone is seriously rooting for you to take some steps that will make the situation hopefully a bit less volatile.

You've chosen to share your situation, and the rest of us have chosen to try and help as best we can. No one is forcing our hands. We've all chosen to come along with you on this "journey" so to speak and can jump off the bus at any point. We've rooted for you as you've taken the tentative steps, knowing how bloody hard it is to do, so now, when you've now come up with a new reason why you can't do anything, why you have to go back to the cage, surely you must understand why folks ARE NOT going to pat you on the head and say, "there there, of course you know what's best, you're doing the right thing," and collude with what we feel to be damaging action, not just for you but (from what you've said) for your children.

What is it that you want from folks here then?

You do sound like you are finding excuses. You are comparing what you know to be happening now, to what you fearmight happen in the future.

You know the present is not working. You can impact on the future by what you do NOW. I don't think the devil you know is tenable. But what do you think?

Good post KRITIQ. What I meant to say, but more empathically

I think that I have not thought through the impact upon the boys and how I can reduce harm. I can not believe that I did not realise and am embarrassed beyond everything. I need to think, perhaps talk to husband and get proper advice. I do not want to make boys choose. I do not want middle son to spend week with husband. Have had to go to school today as he was in isolation following a fight. I need to stay with him. If that is pathetic or an excuse in your eyes so be it. You cannot think worse of me than I do.

I would not talk to your husband again until you've had time to think. See a solicitor, CAB and think how you want to play it.

I don't think it is pathetic. I think that you are acting, quite understandably, upon your emotional - fears that may or may not be unfounded. Action and information will help in your decision making.

emotions - not emotional

Thank you. That is sensible. I will try and get to see a sol asap however having spent a lot of time looking and thinking I am pretty sure boys will chose and therein lies the problem. I just did not think. I was blindly just assuming boys would stay with me but of course I had no reason to assume that.

Will check out what I can. I am pretty certain that my options are very limited but may be (hopefully) wrong. I was sad but felt checked out if that makes sense. Even a little relief despite being worried about short term arrangements I was sure I could manage long term. I can't believe I did not think it through properly and need to avoid that mistake again.

Trouble is he is going to come home. My friend says just keep quiet for a couple of weeks, let husband think what he likes, and take time to take stock. Getting into bed beside him last night was tough - I wish there was another option.

No need for forgiveness. That was lovely.

It feels redundant to say it, but I feel the same as you LeQueen

Not redundant at all. It is sometimes hard to even imagine a relationship like that and is good to hear they exist x

Thank you to everyone who has tried to help. There is no way I can risk lads. And yes I know that the way they live now is somewhat less than ideal. I think I can improve that though by acting more like a confident independent individual. That is the way I know I need to go.

It has been an odd day with husband sending all the normal texts about nice hotel room etc. Mum very ill and has needed extra help and middle lad in trouble at school. But this is my life really and I would not change a lot of it. Anyway I have made a decision for now and will bow out (doubtless to many thinking if not saying I told you so). Despite all the support I think it has been a mistake posting, much has reinforced my feeling that I am both culpable and pathetic. I do need to address the latter but need to be in places that boost rather than squash my confidence I think.

A particular weakness was getting carried away with the idea that I could do this, so much so I forgot those most important to me. I am shocked at how easily swayed I am by others opinions - again something to address I think. That sounds a little (perhaps alot!) like a very snide remark but I think it really is a potential positive from this thread that I should take with me.

Ilove was received with a fair amount of mocking but she gave some very good advice. Time to work on me for me. I just hope I can find the strength to actually do this. I have my doubts about all of this as I suspect you do too, but I have made a choice for now.

and as a sign that I do not fit in at mumsnet...or just from the heart xxxxx

What an odd set of conclusions you've reached meno

Don't you think your middle son's behaviour is a direct result of what your husband did - and the atmosphere in the house for the past few years?

Don't you think it might actually be a helpful thing for the boys to live with their father for at least some of the time, so that they learn how to look after themselves?

You seem to be making the most flawed assumptions here, without all the facts or even knowledge about how shared parenting works in practice. Even if the boys did elect to live with their Dad 100% of the time, they would still need you and want to see you. There are things that they want and need from both of you, in different ways - and that's how it should be.

But you've made a decision without getting even a scintilla of information beforehand. You haven't seen a solicitor and you haven't spoken to the boys about their needs and what they'd like to see happen. It could be that they'd rather you separated, it could be that they'd enjoy life far more if you both parented them singularly but co-operatively and even though no teenager is ever going to agree that they want to learn some independence, it's clear from your posts that your boys sorely need that, because they've had you running around and clearing up after them all their lives, as has your contemptuous and horrible husband.

My conclusion is that it cannot be this that's behind this aberrant decision of yours to stick it out. Because it makes no sense.

It therefore must be that you want to hang on to your marriage at any cost - to your mental health, to the boys' wellbeing, to your dwindling self-respect.

If you carry on down this route, your husband will never take you seriously ever again and his contempt will get worse if that's even possible. Your posts about him laughing and sneering at you were horrible to read. As was the one where you said he'd been unfaithful not just with the OW, but a friend of yours .

What a terrible price to pay for such fear and what a mistake this is for your poor sons.

I wish there was a 'shakes head in sadness and bewilderment' emoticon. You are making a truly awful mistake that will have damaging consequences for years.

agree with charbon. especially that the middle boys problems will be a direct result of his parents marital problems and chaos over the last few years - he was probably the one at the most critical age when it all went down, or just found it hard to deal with as the middle child. his acting out at school at the same time as the marriage is being shitty and his parents are not being consistent in dealing with him but instead he's being used as a pawn in their arguments (and of course he heard himself being argued over) is just so obvious isn't it? to anyone who wants to see.

i don't agree that you've made a decision OP. this isn't a decision it's a resolve NOT to make a decision, to stick your head back under the sand and dress it up as being a decision with reasons. it's not.

and, as expected, it's turned to shoot the messengers time. that's why i said a few posts back i was reluctant to comment on your new found resolve to deal with things given i didn't believe it would last. you've jumped from one extreme emotional place (calling it a decision) to another all over this thread. you haven't bothered seeking information in case it challenges your assumptions (that back up doing nothing), you don't want counselling or to take any action about the fact you are depressed, you don't want to do anything about the way you're being treated etc etc. you talk about looking into the future when it is utterly obvious that the future depends on what you do or if you do nothing, no crystal balls required just the courage to acknowledge you have agency and control over your own life.