Are relationships work?

[menopausemad]

What do you do when your marriage is crap and your partner truly believes that a good relationship is just good without any effort? When he thinks that you should not have to work at having a happy relationship? When he believes you do not need to make any effort to makes things work if you were truly meant to be together? This is after 20 plus years of marriage, an affair and total loss of trust and security. He does not think we should have to work to make things better? We are at an impasse.

ThinkIng. I think how I am at work is an act. I think if I could do the same act at home everyone would be happier.

Ilove's post makes a lot of sense. It is almost as though she had heard my husband talk.

I have found this challenging and difficult I have been thinking about why I post here. It is for validation. So sometime else can tell me what I am feeling is not daft. I can see that this is a symptom of my lack of belief in myself. I have lost trust, not in him but in me.

Sorry, I know I am contradicting myself, sometimes not across posts but in the same post!! Ilove said something about letting him in ( on phone hard to scroll back). He says that. I do reject him and you know what. I fear him being unhappy. I hate seeing him unhappy. And unlike a view here I think I make him unhappy. I don't think he is depressed now, although not happy either, but he is not happy. I wish I could make him laugh.

I have posted here previously in both relationships and aibu. The things that were said in my post in relationships was so different to the response on aibu? In this section I was told my husband was awful and I said some dreadful things to him as a result. In aibu I would post things in isolation and be told i was bring unreasonable. For example, in relationships section there seems to be the view that equality means splitting household chores 50/50 even if 1 partner works 10 hours a day and the other 5. In aibu there is more of a view that if one works less hours it is fair they spend the hours not working doing things around the house.

I would post something here and be told that he is selfish and doesn't care - I would post something very similar in aibu and be told that I should have just done it myself?!

The point is that everyone's viewpoint will be different as we don't know the full story. That is why it's best to speak to a counsellor as a good one will ask additional questions to clarify the situation. There are so many types of counsellors and it's important to find one that suits you (I've tried most)

Sternface, Ihave read posts on here about men leaving their families and not even paying their CSS - that is selfish. I can't see how a court would force someone to maintain 2 houses unless it was affordable? Clearly the father would have to pay maintainence but he would also be allowed to live through any court settlement.

I didn't realise the impact my relationship with my father had on me. I need constant validation - almost pats on the head to say I'm doing well from everyone (work and personal life). If I don't receive this I become paranoid that xyz doesn't like me. That abc thinks I'm bad at my job etc. The reason for this is that I always wanted my father to recognise and love me but he didn't because drink can be a horrible thing.

Even the slightest rejection can make me start thinking in a negative pattern and often the rejection is just perceived.

You have been through so much. I can only imagine how hard it must be to loose a parent - for that alone it is worth speaking to someone.

Also it isn't your job to make him laugh. You need to make you laugh and if he loves you that will make him happy. You can't make someone else happy or unhappy and the more you try the more you will feel like you are failing. You can make yourself happy and by default those that love you will be happy too.

Ilove well of course you will get a different response if you post discrete examples of behaviour in AIBU, but the bigger picture in Relationships! Also I've noticed that this section tends to have more intelligent posts from women with years of life experience who challenge sexism and male entitlement. The point is if you're looking for validation for your decision to put up with an unhappy relationship, then you're going to respond to posters who collude with you and won't challenge your thinking. That's not particularly helpful and often means they themselves want support for their own poor choices and have a vested interest in other women not rocking the boat, because if they did, it would highlight their own inertia. I'm sure that's why you and the OP feel a sense of kinship with one another and respond so positively to eachother's posts.

Comparing this husband's housing decisions with other men who are worse is also not very helpful. Comparing him against a standard of honesty and transparency about his financial motives, is more relevant. Women often take too much comfort in thinking 'Well I agree he's awful, but at least he doesn't beat me, leave me with no money, drink, use drugs etc.' when in fact they should focus on validating their own feelings of dissatisfaction and accept that the only systematically cruel behaviour acceptable in a relationship is none.

OP I'm not challenging your view that your husband is unhappy, or that some of your behaviour isn't contributory to that unhappiness. It sounds like a thoroughly miserable life for both of you, but especially your kids who've got no choice but to live with you both.

But he is staying put not because of love, but out of financial necessity and to get his housekeeping needs met. He wasn't concerned for your children when he left for the OW and put his own happiness first, so he's not there for them either.

I don't think you post on here for validation about how awful your husband is and that you're right to feel like you do. On both threads I've been on, you've had that in bucketloads and it makes no difference. If you've had even more threads you've probably heard from 500 other people who've told you your husband is a shit.

I think you post in the hope that someone will tell you that you're making the right decisions with your life.

The posts that probably frighten you the most are the ones that query your own behaviour and urge you to stop being a victim and wallowing in it. I expect your reaction is to run and hide when you see those, get a bit angry with those posters and check-out of the thread......until the next one.

i thought i was going to have to write a lot to explain my response but sternface has said it all.

though i'd add to ilove that your idea that people here think all housework should be split 50/50 regardless of working hours is bizarre - the general consensus i see around here is that people should have equal leisure time and that that is the real deciding factor of whether things are equal.

i agree that you are screening for what you want to hear and so ilove's posts will be like nectar to you as they maintain the status quo and don't challenge.

Agree that the 'leisure time' equation is more reliable SAF but even that doesn't factor in how bloody dull, unrewarding and repetitive domestic chores are and so it's rarely comparable with paid work, where managers realise that if you don't vary tasks and share the mind-numbing but necessary jobs around the workforce, they'll get bored and might leave.

Plus there's a big difference between someone who is too lazy to do housework and someone who creates more work for his wife, by leaving shit on the toilet and failing to pick up after himself. I just bet this man leaves his clothes on the floor and can't even be bothered to put them in the washing basket. And I bet the OP believes that men 'don't see' dirt....

agreed. the housework that is to be shared should not include picking an adults clothes up off the floor or wiping up piss and shit for anyone over the age of 3 or mud an adult/older child has walked in across the floor for example. one person working more than another does not mean one becoming a personal servant whilst the other ceases to clean up after themselves in the most basic fashion.

tbh if everyone clears up after themselves and treats their environment with respect there isn't that much work to do - certainly not enough to fill more than an hour or two a day even if you're thorough. when i hear of how much domestic work some women on here do i have to assume it's work generated by lazy partners who have abdicated any responsibility or respect for how they use their environment.

Good points by both and I wasn't suggesting that it is ever reasonable to clean up a grown man's shit - that's revolting. I also take on board the point that many of the women on this part of the site have significant life experience however sometimes I read posts and can't believe the anti male comments.

I guess parts of the post resonate with me

I told my husband he didn't show me affection - he said that when he held me I was rigid like cardboard and he was right

I told him he didn't understand me and he said that I didn't let him in - again right- I can't tell him what I want because I don't know

I said that we didn't talk and he said I didn't respect him again he was right. I sometimes treat him with such contempt without meaning to

I said he didn't care enough to make an effort and he said that I set him up to fail - again right but I didn't realise that at the time.

For example, the night where op was tired. We used to have so many days like that. For example, I would hope the whole way home that my husband would have cleaned up and made the kids tea. Of course he hadn't and I felt cheated, let down and went quiet and upset. He would ask what's wrong and I would stomp around not saying what was wrong. When I did eventually tell him he said that he's not a mind reader and I should have asked for support and help.nthe idea that he will be able to instinctively know is wrong and he had also had a bad day so we just bounced off each other in the worst possible way. He is right that I was setting him up to fail and he did. When he did, I felt like he didn't care.

support and help??? does one have to be a mind reader to know one's children need to eat? is it doing you a favour to feed his own children?

so basically all of your feelings were unimportant and all of his were important so you changed to do it all the way that felt right to him and now things are more peaceful.

interesting.

and why, 'of course he hadn't'? you seem to have very low views of the capacity of men to be responsible adults and parents capable of independent thought and action.

Quite right SAF.

ILove if your husband was home before you, he shouldn't need to be reminded to do these things. Do you need reminding - ever?

The huffing and puffing on your part is of course passive-aggressive behaviour and I can see that's unhelpful. It would have been better to be direct and say "Yes there is something wrong. If I'm home first I tidy up and start the dinner. I don't wait for you to come home so that you can do it. I'd prefer for you to do the same when I'm home last."

You didn't set him up to fail with that one, any more than our OP set her husband up to fail by not 'reminding' him to put the bins out. These men are adults, have eyes and the intelligence to know what needs doing. Their boss doesn't need to leave lists every day when they are at work.

But if the default in the relationship is that the woman will do all these tasks and will also be responsible for everyone else's memory, it's incredibly unfair and unreasonable.

Op sorry if this has taken over - I just wanted to let you know that for our relationship talking and understanding was important and individual counselling helped with that. we tried couples counselling and it was awful but it worked individually.

Stern and swallowed - If I usually cook I don't see why it is a big issue that he would not think to start doing it himself. - he works much longer hours than I do and he doesn't get to spend much time with the children - is it not fair that he spends quality time with them? We have our roles which we generally stick to - I don't think that is particularly unusual or interesting. My point was that if I don't tell him how I feel he won't know and the same for op.

Op I hope you find the answers you are looking for

i'd say feeding your children, especially if you don't usually, IS quality time. an opportunity to be hands on loving in a practical way and to show them you too care about their needs and are willing to do some work for them and be aware of and willing to do what is needed to take care of them.

Bloody hell, I wrote a long post hours nago. Where is it?

Suffice for now, please don't apologise. Please don't leave.

"And I bet the OP believes that men 'don't see' dirt...."

This is plain rude sternface,as is the 'wallowing in being a victim' accusation and it is shame because some of what you say is both useful and valid. What is the phrase...'did you mean to be so rude?'

There are multiple realities and truths depending upon perspective. I do not think it does much good to trash another's reality and I believe that Ilove is outlining her own very valid viewpoint. She has also been courageous in presenting an alternative and ilove thank you for that. You are articulating some of my feelings far more explicitly than I have managed. But, these alone do not form my reality.

I think that I am struggling because I do not want to throw away my marriage unless I am sure. I understand the view that I cannot be happy without losing my husband but do not fully believe this (yet). I would like to become more stable within myself before making the decision to ask him to leave. When I can be upbeat I know what we have is worth trying for. What frustrates me so very very much is the belief that marriages will work if there is love; I think marriages, indeed any relationships, require work rather than just being.

Perhaps this is again indicative of my lack of confidence, it has certainly taken a bashing. Atm I see the confidence that I did have as a young woman as an act. I think I have pretended for much of my life and that I have run out of energy for the pretence. I feel like a fake and that my contribution to life is worthless. don't know. I just can't find the words but attacking me personally does not help. I feel as though I am not worth people's time in reading and responding and stern you add to that, I suspect utterly unintentionally. I can't believe you would take the time you have if if really feel that. Or. Maybe you do. I know I should not rely on words on a screen from strangers in any way at all but sometimes they are all I have.

i think you have to analyse what you're saying. look at what you wrote just there - that when you're upbeat you believe it can work. nothing has changed in that scenario except your mood - not your marriage or reality or how you're treated just your mood. our changing mood (particularly when depressed) does not necessarily mean anything has changed in the real world. sometimes feelings are not the best gauge.

anyway i respect that this is your life and you will do what you are ready to do and will hear what you want to hear. i do think you owe yourself to acknowledge honestly to yourself at least why ilove's advice appeals to you. i don't care about being right btw! i have just watched you over a period of time turning reality to fit what you want over and over to the point of slagging yourself off, denying the validity of your own thoughts, feelings and instincts, blaming yourself for other people's behaviour etc.

just be careful. this is the one life you have and the one 'self' you have. you deserve love and prioritising from yourself at the very least.

i'm sorry if my honesty/opinions have hurt you and i genuinely wish you well. take care of yourself.

That sounded like goodbye. Rejection? Just not worth it? I realise that this reads very passive aggressive. But struggling to find words. Thank you for trying. Appreciated.

My reality is that I am worth peanuts. I can understand why people give up. I guess if I disappear now it proves stern right.

That sounded snarky. I do mean thank you for trying.

Your depression tells you you are worth peanuts, meno - it is not the reality.

I expect you're a bit bored of me now, but I'm going to say it again anyway - please look at counselling. Not with the shellsuited man, with someone else. Talk things out, get some techniques to help you break out of the cycle you're in.

I realise this is not something you're particularly interested in, but you seem stuck and it seems like you have been for some time - you need something new. You can't keep doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result.

it's not reality meno - it's your perception and a distorted perception at that given depression, adultery etc.

it wasn't goodbye as in me rejecting you it was the sense that you'd rather not hear from me anymore as i was saying things that didn't agree with what you wanted/needed to believe. i'm here.

and think about it - when you're feeing good you think the relationship can work, when you are feeling bad you are worthless and nothing can ever work. these are feelings, not reality. you are reframing reality depending on your mood when your mood is not a reliable indicator. your self worth, your perception of the future, everything is revolving around how you feel at that moment.

as tough as it sounds it really is time to start challenging those feelings and questioning them and applying your mind and will to things rather than just riding them like a helpless passenger.

How?

Don't say counselling. Time and money not there and nhs crap

You can ask to be referred to someone else than the gp's attached counsellor. How can you rule out NHS services entirely, have you given everything they have to offer a shot, really?

You can look up depression support & services in your area here. Some of these are free.

Surely it would be worth making the time and even finding the money from somewhere if you had to, 'though?

you can be referred to the mental health team, assessed and referred from there - if it's practical answers you're really looking for.

there's also the fact that YOU can choose to start challenging your thoughts and feelings, you can decide it's time to address things, you can start spending 30mins a day relaxing or meditating or whatever works for you, you can choose to put in place some healthy boundaries, you can decide not to listen to 'i'm a piece of shit' anymore without actively trying to challenge it, you can fight back!

this is your life! it is up to you. are you stupid? no i don't think so. in which case you can research, read, explore and find strategies to build up your mental health. IF you want to. IF you're not scared that the only thing that makes your situation tolerable is depression. that may sound illogical but often there is a reason why we get stuck in a particular state and that is because there is something to be lost in changing, or a fear to be faced in moving on.

do you literally mean how? do you want things to read, things to do and try etc or are you asking a rhetorical question that is meant to say - i'm helpless, without help, it's hopeless? if it's the former what have you tried so far?

if you're genuinely saying 'how?' and looking for an answer i'd say:

step 1: tell somebody - a friend, the doctor, an extended family member, whoever - you tell someone, say it out loud, admit how you feel and how wrong things are and how unhappy you are and how you do not know what to do but need to do something.