first time domestic violence advice wanted

[J4J]

Should he stay or leave? I am so confused. I am married to a usually loving husband and have 4 small children. 2 days ago he became unusually angry and punched me in the face - I was knocked unconscious. It happened in front of all the children. When I came round my 4 year old daughter was holding me and crying shouting wake up. When I looked at her her first words were 'oh mummy I thought you were dead'. This is out of character for my husband. He was initially in denial and told me to get off the floor and stop pretending. It was not until my dad phoned him at work the following day and told him I was in hospital getting x-rayed that I think he realised what he did. This is a first offence so the police after arresting him when he got back from work released him with a caution. Do I let him stay in the house now. Part of me still loves him very much and another part of me is completely shocked and upset. I am really hurting inside and want things just to be normal. Statistically it may happen again but I'm not sure it will as he is a good man who needs to manage his anger but yet he knocked me out....

Nigella - can you just confirm J4J should expect support during that intervention and her relationship with DC will not be harmed

At the moment she must feel beseiged and unsupported by 'the professionals'. if I was her I'd fear involving them at this point in time.

How do I get heard?

Hi ToothbrushThief in J4Js situation I would be far more afraid of my children experiencing physical and emotional abuse than I would be afraid of professional!

In a situation like the one J4J describes the degree of support a mother would receive from Children?s Services would be dependant on whether she was willing to prioritise the welfare of her children over the desire to sustain a relationship with the abusive partner.

Children?s Services are there to ensure that children are protected from abuse so if a parent is preoccupied with sustaining a relationship with an abusive partner then they will be effectively be asked to choose between the partner or the children.

But if a parent is willing to prioritise their children?s needs then they will receive support.

The reason this case would have gone to a Child Protection Conference and that I believe the children would have been subject to a Child Protection Plan is because they were witness to and caught up in extreme violence within the home. The risks of emotional and physical abuse are very high and as long as they are having unsupervised contact or contact supervised by J4J the risks continue to be present.

The purpose of a Child Protection Plan is to protect the children from abuse and work towards a situation whereby the parents/carers of the children can continue to protect them without need of further interventions from social workers. If Children?s Services were involved in a case such as J4J describes they would be supervising contact and working towards a situation whereby a contact could be safe and ongoing (if that was in the best interests of the children) e.g. supervised in a contact centre by qualified staff or supervised by a reliable family member or family friend.

They would also look at emotional and psychological support for the children, probably through a referral to CAMHS. No child who watches their mother get attacked in this way will be able to feel safe in the presence of the attacker again. Also children who witness an attack of the type that J4J described often blame themselves and will need a lot of work to be done with them to ensure that they do not carry a burden of guilt for the rest of their lives. Children?s Services could also work with the children on safety strategies and how to respond should they find themselves in such dangerous circumstances again.

As J4J describes herself as having a visual impairment and needing help around this at times, Children?s Services may also make a referral to a local young carers project because with the partner having left the family home, the children may be offering more support to their mother with daily tasks.

J4J the way for someone to be heard in a situation like this is to tell the whole story to any of the support services you have come into contact with e.g. police, medical staff, Children?s Services. You can find the number for your local Children?s Services department in a phone book or via a google search. Such a high risk situation will not be ignored.

allthequeensmen, thanks for backing me up on the previous post, is there anything you would add to what I have written in this one? After a few months of maternity leave I fear I may have forgotten something vital!

Nigella I think a large part of the problem here is that there's no-one involved who is standing up to J4J's H from a position of authority and saying, "You are dangerous, and we will protect your children and your wife from you. We know what you did, and you can cannot talk us around it."

J4J so desperately needs someone professional in her corner, and I hope that she can use your advice.

J4J I too think you should be telling the FULL story to as many people who will listen. At the moment, your H is working hard to minimise and dismiss it by avoiding talking about it, and when he does acknowledge it, it's only to say how you drove him to it.

Maybe sit down tomorrow, go back through this thread, and make a list of every professional agency that has been recommended. Then, get their numbers and call them. If you've spoken to them before, chase them up on what the situation is with your case at the moment, and make sure you reiterate the key events of that night so they understand the gravity of the attack. For those you haven't spoken to, again, tell them the facts of the event, and ask them what steps they can take to protect you and your children.

Good luck, I hope you find more support this week.

It will get better J4J.

You're in the mire at the moment but you will climb out.

You do need to make a decision to leave him in the mire. His current behaviour is SO far from that of a man you could make this work with. I fear by intending to stay you will validate his stance to professionals.

J4J, I suspect that he feels that you will relent at some point.
I assume he is still at your parents' and you are being civil with him.

It also seems that he is trying to twist it all so that you are to blame. I don't think you will see apologetic any time soon, if ever.

i think nigella made some important poitns about teh children above -
"No child who watches their mother get attacked in this way will be able to feel safe in the presence of the attacker again. Also children who witness an attack of the type that J4J described often blame themselves and will need a lot of work to be done with them to ensure that they do not carry a burden of guilt for the rest of their lives. Children?s Services could also work with the children on safety strategies and how to respond should they find themselves in such dangerous circumstances again.

someon independent needs to ahve talked thru with teh dc what ahppened and how they feel - by sending them off wih h as tho nothin has happened ar ethey really processing it? understnading how bad it was? or it is telling them it was ok really?

j4j - you can take a tough stand here and say no contact until someone else eg court or SS says that yes is ok for your dc to see him an in what format.
dont let it be your decision . make it someone elses.

i do recall thinking dc seeing their dad was most important thing but maybe this was wrong thinking .... because it set them up to witness more agression. you are making sure it supervised, handovers done quickly etc...but he will try and worm his way in to being around you more unless is very clear...indeed has already done so by sugesting family therapy with you ...just be careful and do go back and talk to he profressionals as nigella suggested reminding them exactly waht happened as it may have got lost under his "we've both been agressive we both need help we we we we "

i have only just caught up with this thread, and i have to say that as i read about the reaction from the GP j i almost wanted to reach through the screen....absolutely stunned at the GPs reaction.

j i want to reiterate that you are holding up brilliantly in the face of extreme pressure by just about everyone to relent, but please, please, do not agree to any kind of family 'therapy' right now. Your husband is only trying to down play his part in this, and i believe that right now it would be the wrong thing to do. There may well have been issues within the relationship, but he waived his right to have them heard by you in a cosy setting when he punched you in the face.

izzy i absolutely correct in saying the only legal defence to hitting someone is self defence - and under the circumstances you describe it certainly was not.

After the initial incident was dealt with by police, did anyone from the domestic violence unit or public protection unit get in touch? In my force, they are obliged to do so, if they have j, what have they said?

As for the child protection issues, i seemed to recall somewhere further upthread that social services had been involved? I think at the time you felt very uneasy about that aspect, but perhaps they could work for you rather than against you if you were to recontact them....now you have had time to process some of this.

I am so sorry because i do feel you have been cast adrift to deal with the fall out, and your parents are not helping in housing your husband. He is doing a wonderful job of turning this around to make it your problem.....remember its not. its not its not its not and only you were there at the time - dont allow anyone else to steer you on this - you know how it played out - you know that this man punched you in the face in front of your children and knocked you out - thats the long and the short of it and whatever else he says, whom ever he gets "on side" cannot change or excuse that fact, and its not as if he is full of remorse and throwing himself at your mercy - he isnt - he is calculatingly removing all your support networks and backing you into a corner. Change gp and go back.
and dont ever contact him when you are feeling low - call anyone but him. I am so sorry j, you have been very strong and you can do this. Press on with the occupation order, and dont lose sight of what he did, I am appalled that he appears to be getting more support than you are.

Thank you VicarInATuTu. I have just been back to another GP at the same practice. He listened and his response was much more appropriate. He said I had a lot on my plate at the moment and would benefit from talking it all through with someone. He would look into counselling for me and get back to me. He also gave me the name of the practice manager so I could write a letter to her about my first visit. I have just written the letter and thanks to all of you that responded I have used some of what you have said in my letter. I still can't get hold of my CAB solicitor. How do I go about cancelling her and do I have to wait before I begin the process again - I am getting legal aid and then an occupational order and non-molestation order. A domestic violence advisor from the police gave me a follow up phone call shortly after the incident and just went through how to keep myself safe. SOcial services have closed the case as they don't see the children at risk because husband is not living in the home. They also played well and reponded appropriately to the social worker's questions when she visited. I am worried that they are blaming themselves. Is it enough that I talk through their feelings or is there somewhere else they can go for this?

That's great that you have spoken to a more sympathetic gp J. You sound much better right now. Keep supportive people around you.

if the dc are open in talkng to you about it then that is fine,; dont push it, but allow opportunities, sit down and role play with them see how they play with dolls etc. maybe they will have a dol get beaten up - that is fine -= you could jsu ask quesitons like "and what happened next?" eg they may play out what they saw to process it... and you could ofer "good" outcomes like "everyone is safe now" etc .

they will come up with questions at the most unexpected times...

or if there is something in their behaviour like aggression that you need to sit and talk to them .

my dd 9 has been writing stories recently about everything...in one she wrote

..."once there was a mum and dad who had 3 children. one day the dad got angry and sad so the mum and 3 children [more on this bit -they went to another house etc].....then the children were sometimes with mum and sometimes with dad. sometimes dad was happy but sometimes he was sad....but one day the dad got sad and angry. so the mummy and daddy started to fight.* and the youngest one did not like it..."

• i allowed him into our new place to pick up dc etc. moral: keep the boundaries up and dont allow him in your home even on pick ups !

it is interesting that she wrote it as mum and dad fighting - both at fault even tho from my point of view it was his aggression.... and certainly it was his fist thru the door etc. but i think what the dc see are the two adults fighting. regardless of whoever is the instigator or the "worst". important to say and show there will be no more fighting. no more violence and aggression.

Well, from my experience it has been enough to keep talking with DS. 6 months post separation, we did consult a psychologist who thought he was coping well and had the tools to do it.

He was not escaping into a fantasy world, he talked naturally about it (in fact he will often mention it to random people and in the middle of the street, which is a bit but at least he is expressing his thoughts and feelings).
I have made sure to let him know that ex loves him very much (although I'm not particularly convinced myself, but oh well), and that it's ok to love his dad, even though we cannot live together and that I don't like his dad because of his actions.

He too has witnessed some episodes of violence, although not as bad as yours.

Also, make sure that you let them know that it's not their problem and that they cannot fix it. I was told this by the psychologist.
They don't have to make choices. And certainly not between mum and dad.

J4J - sounds like you made progress at the GP. I imagine it's really hard work and you need people to react appropriately. I agree that you are being badly let down by most agencies probably because you are a capable woman and don't appear like a victim.

You do need help though. You need support to prevent bullying

Is the solicitor local to you? You could sit down with yellow pages and just ring every practice asking for the sol by name. Or you could get Women's Aid to ecommend one, ring them, explain that the one you've already seen hasn't got back to you and that it is urgent, chances are the new sol will sort it out.

So glad you've got a better gp now. Make sure that's the one you use for you and the children from now on. Don't go back to the old one for any reason, and don't take the children to her either.

You're doing brilliantly. It may not feel like it right now, but you are.

You can search here for solicitors by name and that will give you the contact details. Hope this helps and I hope the last GP gave you some reassurance that you are the innocent party here.

Law society

J4J I am cheering at everything you have accomplished so far. Your last post is full of positive steps you have taken - it's so wonderful to hear. Well done!

Regarding helping your children: I don't know if it's been mentioned yet on this thread, but Lundy Bancroft has a book called "When Dad hurts Mom" aimed at the children who witness domestic violence. If your children are too young to read it themselves, it might still give you good ideas for how to approach them.

And yes, what you are doing for them now - talking through their feelings - is exactly the right thing to be doing. See? You're amazing.

You are doing so very well, J, and in the face of such horrible circumstances. I wish I could show up at your door with tea and crumpets but that might be a bit odd. Please consider me your virtual tea-and-crumpets butler, whenever it might make you smile. :)

hi speaking from alot of experience once they start they never stop if you let them get away with it . i left my ex who i have a daughter with and a son from a previous relationship both of whom were under 3 , i was left homeless shareing a room with both of them finding it extreamly difficult to cope alone at 20 .. but now i am engaged i live i a huge 3 bed house [owned by my fiance] and i am extreamly happy and so are my children this is less than a year on .. i put up with extream abuse for 2 years dont let it happen to you i count myself as a surviver and very lucky dont let yourself be trapped there is allway light at the end of the tunnel and noone should be used as a punch bag not even once x

Lots of lovely moral support here and good advice, thank you MNers, from me as well as J. I have been reading and it really helps me to get objective views here so that I can try to support J in the best ways.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to see J as much in the last week or so as I've been very busy with starting a new work project and also my own MH isn't 100% and I wasn't sure how much help I could be to J when I'm going through a bad patch myself.

She is doing fantastically well, as you say, and is proving very strong in the face of pressure still coming from the H, his family and J's family.

It is J's DD's birthday party tomorrow and the H and his mother are going to attend. J has asked them to go straight to the venue, rather than going to the house first and they won't be invited back afterwards either :)

Happy birthday, LittleJ! Hope you have a fab party.

Hope everything goes well, J4J.

Party went well for my daughter but very awkward for me. Mother in law turned up at the house for parking vouchers! I told her there was parking at the venue but she insisted she wanted some to park in our street to walk to get some lunch! I shut the door on her and got the vouchers and opened it again to give them to her. Can't believe I shut the door in her face sort of speak but I had said not to come to the house and she did her own thing anyway. Must be where her son gets it from. I got the 3rd degree from mother and father in law and James ignored me so just felt awkward and was glad when it ended. I tried to book us a session with Relate on Monday - got a last minute appointment for this Wednesday but my husband could not make it as he had to get the car serviced! Good to see where our relationship is in his list of priorites! I wonder whether I will ever see a softer man or is there no love left anymore. i think i should try and focus on other things and try and think of him as little as possible for the moment. Has anyone had this sort of treatment from their partner after being hit? Do they change - Lundy says it takes about 4 to 5 months before realisation of what they have done dawns. Would you agree?

Maybe, if they ever realise.

A word of caution re the relate thing...couples counselling is rarely a good idea when there has been abuse in a relationship. Your husband may well cause you to doubt yourself in the session, and unless the counsellor is VERY aware s/he may not realise what is happening.

You may wish to use your DH's lack of availability to see the relate counsellor on your own and use the time to sort out your feelings about the relationship and all that you have been through. The counsellor will/should probably advise you to then go for separate counselling sessions...he can then organise his around his very important appointments, and show his commitment to change!!!

have to run, sorry for brevity.

you are doing so well.

Sorry the party was so hard for you J4J and I can't believe you're being given a hard time by his parents.

Please, please, please can I just reiterate what everyone else on this thread has said. It is EXTREMELY dangerous for you to be going to any kind of counselling with your H. Extremely.

You ask "whether I will ever see a softer man" and "has anyone had this sort of treatment from their partner".

I know this is hard for you, bit you need to face up to these 3 facts:

• he hit you and has shown no remorse
• he hit you and it not taking any action to seek treatment for violent abusers
• he hit you and is still trying to control you through his family members and incredibly dangerous suggestions of couples counselling (as though him punching you is a "couple" issue)

J4J I am very concerned from your last post that whatever your in-laws may have said to you is doing some damage. You don't seem to have the conviction you have had until now that your H's behavious is inexcusable and unjustifiable, especially in light of the fact that he's refusing to take responsibility.

I know we're just faceless names on a computer, and it's difficult to listen to us when RL people are so much more prevalent in your life, but IMHO you need to take a MASSIVE step back from your H and his family, and make those calls to strengthen your position and the position of your children. Please remember that they need your protection still - don't let others with an agenda sweep what's happening under the carpet and nullify the hurt you have been caused.

I am very worried about you, I hope you can get some RL support. What is happening with the solicitor? Occupational order?

Dear J4J, yes......so many of us have had this sort of treatment from their partner after being hit?
Do they change?...very very seldom, and never if they can make their partner think that they were wholly or partly to blame/take them back without good evidence of change.

when I showed my "D"H the door (after 14 years!) I told him minimum 2 years apart and only then a chance of working on our relationship if there was clear evidence of real change. At 4 months there is NONE.....

for them to change takes such commitment and hard work. their behaviour has worked so well for them for so long...and they don't think about the other people, it's all about them (yes even with the DCs it's usually about their role as father rather than needs of DC). To want to change he has to walk in your shoes....and how likely is that?

sorry, sorry sorry OP but you Really need to be realistic, even if you allow room for him to change it must not be at the risk of your safety, mental stability or YOUR CHILDREN.

J you have done your bit now with Relate, you had an appointment in place he decided he couldn't leave his car. Now it's his turn.

Sorry you were given such a hard time by his parents.