first time domestic violence advice wanted

[J4J]

Should he stay or leave? I am so confused. I am married to a usually loving husband and have 4 small children. 2 days ago he became unusually angry and punched me in the face - I was knocked unconscious. It happened in front of all the children. When I came round my 4 year old daughter was holding me and crying shouting wake up. When I looked at her her first words were 'oh mummy I thought you were dead'. This is out of character for my husband. He was initially in denial and told me to get off the floor and stop pretending. It was not until my dad phoned him at work the following day and told him I was in hospital getting x-rayed that I think he realised what he did. This is a first offence so the police after arresting him when he got back from work released him with a caution. Do I let him stay in the house now. Part of me still loves him very much and another part of me is completely shocked and upset. I am really hurting inside and want things just to be normal. Statistically it may happen again but I'm not sure it will as he is a good man who needs to manage his anger but yet he knocked me out....

Hi Good that you are back

TBH, the only reason I'd want to attend any counselling sessions with ex in similar circumstances, would be to make sure that the counsellor got the full information and not just "his side" or even a total lie.

I would agree with the Woman's Aid adviser. (Some) Men can be really delusional and not realise what they have lost until too late.

oh gosh J4J This sounds so overwhelming, you poor thing.

(1) I think he needs to get out of your parents' nice house where (I'll bet) he's getting his laundry done and his food cooked. At the moment your mother is doing all the stuff for him that you did. His life is no harder, is it?
I think he needs to BE in his grotty bedsit with nothing in the fridge, doing his own ironing, before it 'clicks' that he's not at home any more.

(2) he shows no remorse because he doesn't feel bad about knocking you unconscious. Because he thinks he ought to be able to do that whenever he likes. Because he thinks he is more important to you and the kids, he is a real person, you are a domestic appliance that he can (a) shag and (b) torture emotionally and physically for his own amusement.

(3) It is tragic that he doesn't want to see more of the kids and doesn't regret the family he lost - but it is not suprising. The kids, you - he doesn't LOVE you all. He loved having control over you all. Now you're not giving him that delicious, heady cocktail of your fear and compliance, what's in it for him, eh? - - this is how he thinks, because this is how abusers think.

(4) I'm sorry that I'm writing this. I'm sure it's very hurtful to read. But you need to read it, because you need to STOP thinking "if I here H I'd be feeling X, Y and Z - why isn't he feeling those things?" and realize that if you were H you'd never knock your wife unconscious and then irritably tell her to get up while your 4 year old clung to her, sobbing.

Sorry, J, he's not a person with feelings like ours. He's an abuser.

(5)Do NOT go into any kind of therapy with him, at all, ever. He cannot change until he wants to change (even then, it rarely works) and he doesn't want to change. He wants his punching bag back and compliant and ironing his shirts.

Go into some for yourself. Are you still going to the Freedom Programme?

Finally, many many hugs for you - well done for getting him out of your house and protecting yourself and your children from this horrible, petrifying man.

Relate, for example, won't take a couple for counselling where they recognise an abusive relationship - since they will not facilitate an abusive relationship.

So once your parents are away he will have their house to himself without even the silent reminder that you are their daughter and he is there because he attacked you? I think being in your parents house is still, for him, being in the family fold.

what does he hope to achieve from fammily therapy?
to make you take him back?
i see no point until you have had more therapy for yourself and a good long time apart .

as was said - stop trying to get into his head. you cannot. no point. he is piobably builidng story where the contact is restricted solely by you and nothing to do with his behaviour.

what common ground is there?

none at all - other than the DC.

if you let him back to your life/hiome you will never ever know how safe you are.
so you cannot.

your concerns have to be -
is he safe to have the children on his own?
who can decide that? court? CAFCASS? psychologist?

how to arrange that?
if he isnt safe, how to arrange supervised contact without him coming into your house .

coming into the house is confusing for DC.

how to sort out finances longer term.

him living at your parents is still weird. but maybe they think of him as a convenient house sitter while they away?

I agree with blackcurrents. While he is at your parents' he is still part of the family, still having things done for him and still somewhere close to you to exert influence (obv. not physically close but mentally and emotionally). He needs to be in a grotty bedsit looking for the nearest laundrette.

No joint therapy of any kind, family or couple.

Keep going J. Glad MN have sorted out your log in.

J4J - I've been meaning to send you a message. Apologies, life has just gotten in the way here.
Please don't consider counselling with your H - of any sort.
I did the relate thing and it was dreadful, dh managed to make it all about how difficult it was to live with me (and dc) and I just wasn't able to assert myself. I also paid for it for several years afterwards as by him actually going, he had some sort of 'proof' that he had 'tried'.
Relate is about compromise - there just can't be a compromise when one party is abusing the other.
My dh went to 2.5 years of weekly therapy, as have I. Through this he started to understand why he behaved as he did, and thus was able to change his own behaviour. I, on the other hand also needed to change. After several years of misery, where arguments would get out of hand, I ended up being afraid of bring up anything that might ignite a row. Instead I said nothing and suffered years of frequent depressive episodes as a result of suppressing my emotions. I am only now getting to the stage of being able to talk about something that has bothered me.
I'm loath to put myself out there as an example where the abusive party has 'changed'. Dh never moved out and things were still very difficult for about a year, year and a half after he started therapy. There are times where I wonder if I just wouldn't have been better/braver to have made a clean break.
But I didn't, and we are where we are.

J4J you are doing so well, you should be proud of yourself.

I echo what everyone else has said- no counselling at all with him until he has shown long standing evidence of enrolling himself in a programme for abusers, and making the attempt to change.

Unfortunately, sweetheart, I don't think that will ever happen. He is being cold because it's one of only a handful of ways he can think of to assert control. To make you yearn for times when he would say goodbye to you. He's hoping that you won't cope with his disconnecting and that you'll start to compromise in order to get something, ANYTHING from him that shows he still cares.

Use us as the eyes and ears for all the doubts that this coldness is creating in you, but don't let him see it.

Keep doing what you're doing- look after your kids, protect them, protect yourself. And I agree, if your Dad is prepared to kick your H out on your say so, then I'd give him his cue. Life for him at the moment is too easy with little incentive to make the changes required.

Keep going, you're amazing. X

I am finding what you say Blackcurrants too strong and harsh. I find 'torture emotionally and physically for his own amusement' harsh as i'm not sure how aware he was of the emotional abuse and he has only ever hurt me physically that once. I certainly don't think he was doing it for his own amusement but perhaps due to some warped attitudes and values that he has formed over a period of time that he may not even be fully conscious of. He has no relationship with his father which says a lot and he lacks self confidence.

I was never in fear of him - although now I obviously feel more wary though I doubt he would hit me again.

'Punching bag back and compliant' also strong words as he only punched me once and yes i know one punch can kill but it was once. I am also not that compliant - i have been able to disagree with him and 'get away with it'. Yes we should have discussed things more rather than just leaving things unfinished but I guess with a young family time is limited.

When is your solicitor applying for the occupation order? Will s/he also be applying for a non-molestation order?

I'm very concerned J4J that you are making excuses for him...

Are you doing the Freedom Program?

I think Blackcurrents might be getting a little to close to the truth?

You were never in fear of him and, yet, he did hit you and made you lose consciousness and didn't even bother take care of you.

You feel more wary now and yet, somehow, you doubt he would hit you again?

You are "getting away with it" because he thinks he has a chance of getting back with you again.

You will actually find that if he did it once he is more likely to do it again. His behaviour right after and so far only shows that he really is likely to. Particularly if you take him back.

He didn't push you. He didn't even slap you. He punched you unconscious. In front of your children.
I think you need to read your first post again.

Hi J4J.

My husband is really dismissive of Mumsnet but yesterday he read your OP as he saw it on my screen. He didn't mention it at the time but later on he told me that it was the most disturbing thing he's ever read. He was so shocked that someone could punch their wife so that they went unconscious - it would be bad enough to do that to anyone but to their wife and in front of their children. Then, not to be so instantly full of remorse and horror at what they'd done is unimaginable.

I could never, ever trust anyone who did this to me ever again.

I know we don't know the ins and outs of your relationship but punching you in the face so hard that you lose consciousness is absolutely shocking! I can't see anyway to carry on. I don't know what your parents are thinking but I would not want anyone near my daughter (or son) who could do that to them. Even if this is the first time they've shown any sign of violence - it's a massive first sign.

My father punched my mother in the face - only one time that I know of. I was 9 at the time and we were moving house. He'd come home drunk and she'd dared to complain about that so he hit her. The next day he couldn't even remember doing it. She told everyone that she'd tripped over packing boxes and hurt her face. I think she told one friend the truth but she laughed and thought she was joking. He's never done it again (or she hasn't told me) but he treats her like shit and I've been aware of it for as long as I can remember. The first time I suggested she leave him was when I was 6 and I'm 40 now. The awful thing is that I don't think much of my father but I feel furious with my mother. Even now she phones me telling me the latest thing that has happened. Apparently she originally stayed for the children (ha ha!), then it was the grandchildren (I know they'd say 'ha ha!' too) and now she feels at 75 it's too late to do anything about it. What a waste of a life.

There's not much point to my message except that I wanted to convey some kind of SHOCK! This is so off the scale unreasonable behaviour. I know you've taken massive steps but I wanted to remind you of how shocking this is.

Sorry, probably not at all helpful!

I am so sorry to have upset you, J, I truly do not want to.

What kind of support do you have? Are you still using the Freedom programme? Did you finish the Lundy Bancroft book?

Just to say that we may not like it, but it sometimes it's good having someone saying the harsh things that we don't want to face, particularly during a difficult break up.
It happened to me.

Maybe he is not consciously 'torture (you) emotionally and physically for his own amusement', but that was a small thing from blackcurrants' post.
It is difficult to think that someone we love or loved may do that, but people who love don't punch each other, no matter how angry they are.

I hope you can get some psychological help through this. It sounds as though you are both in shock and suffering a loss like a bereavement at the same time. I can understand why your dad is keeping an eye on him he must be terrified for you. But what happened s when they go to Australia? My guess is that your relationship will never heal and the sooner you let go of him and try to blank him out of your mind the better. This isn't about what he does it is about your choices and your future. Once you have let go of him in your mind you will be able to move forward.

Dear J4J
I am so sorry you are having such a tough time and have so much to get your head round.

Rereading lindt74 first para is basically it - isn't it? But when it is put like that -does it make the way ahead seem a little clearer?

What has happened to you (and your children) is truly shocking and I hope you can find the kind of help you need to go forward.

"I was never in fear of him - although now I obviously feel more wary though I doubt he would hit me again."
he wont nee d to because the fear will be there..
but more than that - what about the DC.
it all goes back to them and your DD thinking you were dead.

and the other things you have mentioned like having to fight him physically off the dc to stop him rough handling them etc.

pleas e please go to counselling yourself - from what you have said this really was not a total one off behaviour tho it was the most extreme.

I have just asked my Dad to ask him to leave their house. H sent me an email saying he wants to have the kids Saturday as on Sunday he is with his grandmother? That's enough of thinking about him then if all he is going to do is put his grandmother in front of his immediate family. Me and the kids do actually have plans on Saturday already. I need to see he cares - I know he doesn't respect me so i guess he doesn't care. This really hurts.

When will you be in possession of an occupation Order?

Bit more together again. I have tried phoning and emailing the solicitor yesterday re Occupational order and she has not got back to me. I applied last Monday for legal aid. Not heard anything. Wish I had an advocate. It's ok Blackcurrants but I don't see him like that even now. I have read all the Lundy B book and made 17 pages of notes from it - OCD I know! I am now reading 'The Road Less Travelled' by Scott Peck. I was told by Woman's Aid Advisor today that there will be a MARAC meeting next Thursday but that there was nothing to worry about. Anybody know about these - anything I should be saying or doing for this?

I think you are over thinking.
He wants to see his grandmother or has to whatever. She won't be around to see as long as his kids will be unless she is immortal.
So he suggests seeing kids on Saturday instead. It.s not uncaring but if it isn't convenient it isn't convenient.
Unless they could meet him at grandmothers ?
But if she too old etc then so be it.

They will survive not seeing him for a week .

Marac as far as I know is about ensuring you are safe dc are safe seeing if anything needs to be put in place

Can't you tell him you think the children should stay with you for a few weeks? You would be perfectly reasonable to refuse him access to them and to you but perhaps if you give him a date when he can have supervised access in say 3 weeks time would give you some headspace. You must be firm and clear with him.

As I expect you have been told, a MARAC is a multi-agency risk assessment conference which you have no need to prepare for or attend as you will be represented by the independent domestic violence counsellor who should have been allocated to you shortly after the incident.

From what you've said, it sounds as if your advocate may be the Women's Aid adviser who called you today - get back on to her to find out if this case.

I am very concerned that you have not yet got the essential Order that will enable you to prevent your h from returning to the marital home.

Were you referred to the solicitor who is applying for legal aid by WA? When you saw her on Monday of last week, did you swear your Affidavit in support of your application for an occupation Order while you were in her office?

I'm also concerned that the police have not fitted an alarm system to your home and provided you with a 'panic button'. This is an issue that your dv counsellor should take to the MARAC.

It seems to me that you have received very little, if any, help from the relevant agencies following your assault. Sadly, this is not uncommon and many victims find themselves having to kick up a fuss struggle to get the protection and support that should be immediately forthcoming to them after dv.

IMO you are best advised to abandon pseudo psychology The Road Less Travelled as you need to walk the well-trodden path of a warrior woman, a veritable Boudicca, while you concentrate on protecting your dc and repelling any advances from your h and/or his apologists

Btw, vis a vis your dc - it goes without saying that your h gets to see the dc ONLY when it is convenient for you and ONLY when contact can be strictly supervised by yourself and another who is not related to him.

J4J
Are you still going to the Freedom Programme?
if so, is it helpful?

if not, what made you stop? Are you getting other forms of help? Counselling? This is an extremely horrifying thing, that he did to you, and I wonder if you are getting support. I hope you are.

So my questions are just catching up with earlier pages, really: what's the news with the status of
(1)the Freedom Programme? Or other ways you are trying to recover from this treatment?
(2)the Occupation order?

I hope you're ok. Stay safe.

Hi all,

J is still attending the Freedom programme (went today) but is becoming frustrated with it as I think she feels it is reiterating what she has already learned from the Lundy book. Her family are still being unsupportive and becoming more so, if that's even possible. Everyone (the H, his family, J's family) is suggesting she needs psychiatric help herself to look at her 'her part in the breakdown of the relationship'. I feel she is still being very clear-headed about this, ie she is willing to look at the 'breakdown of their relationship' but NOT until her H has been through his own process of therapy as she sees the violent incident as entirely separate to any pressures that existed in the relationship. In fact, although J feels there have been relationship difficulties, she feels that they were improving in recent months. As far as I know, her H is still seeing a CBT practitioner and J has no way of knowing what her H has told the therapist. It seems the practitioner is supporting/has suggested the idea of family therapy or couples counselling. J and I both feel this is a totally inappropriate suggestion for a therapist to make in this situation.

Ladies, please clarify for me (and for J too, if she still needs clarification)...we are right in thinking, are we not, that it is never, ever acceptable for a man to punch his wife unconscious in front of their children. Regardless of relationship pressures. Regardless of whether the woman has been a nag or controlling or difficult (this is NOT the way I see J, fwiw). Regardless if she slaps him around the face twice (the first one being a failed attempt). Regardless of whether the H feels they have had too many children against his will (!) in too short a space of time. Regardless of whether he thinks his wife has changed since he met her.

J and I are both getting so many mixed messages from various sources, professionals and otherwise. It can be so hard to remain steadfast in the face of it all.

Sorry if this is totally garbled. Just wanted to put down some of the things J and I have been talking about it recent days. I'm pretty sure she won't mind me posting this, I hope not.