first time domestic violence advice wanted

[J4J]

Should he stay or leave? I am so confused. I am married to a usually loving husband and have 4 small children. 2 days ago he became unusually angry and punched me in the face - I was knocked unconscious. It happened in front of all the children. When I came round my 4 year old daughter was holding me and crying shouting wake up. When I looked at her her first words were 'oh mummy I thought you were dead'. This is out of character for my husband. He was initially in denial and told me to get off the floor and stop pretending. It was not until my dad phoned him at work the following day and told him I was in hospital getting x-rayed that I think he realised what he did. This is a first offence so the police after arresting him when he got back from work released him with a caution. Do I let him stay in the house now. Part of me still loves him very much and another part of me is completely shocked and upset. I am really hurting inside and want things just to be normal. Statistically it may happen again but I'm not sure it will as he is a good man who needs to manage his anger but yet he knocked me out....

"Ladies, please clarify for me (and for J too, if she still needs clarification)...we are right in thinking, are we not, that it is never, ever acceptable for a man to punch his wife unconscious in front of their children. Regardless of relationship pressures. Regardless of whether the woman has been a nag or controlling or difficult (this is NOT the way I see J, fwiw). Regardless if she slaps him around the face twice (the first one being a failed attempt). Regardless of whether the H feels they have had too many children against his will (!) in too short a space of time. Regardless of whether he thinks his wife has changed since he met her"

I (for one) hereby clarify and confirm that it is never ever acceptable for a man or a woman to punch another person unconscious with the sole exception that they are entitled to defend themselves if they are in fear of their life.

In this particular instance, whatever excuses J's h is coming up with in a vain attempt to justify his behaviour, self-defence cannot be one of them.

What 'professionals' are leading you to believe otherwise?

Although it sounds as if members of her family have got more than a few screws loose may be in need of psychological intervention, IMO J is not in need of 'psychiatric help', albeit that she may benefit counselling in a therapeutic setting to help her come to terms with the knowledge that her h is not the man she believed him to be, and that her relationship with him was not as she thought it was.

In common with many others, the Freedom programme is only as good as what the participant gets out of it.

If J believes that she has no need of it as she has already processed the knowledge and insights that can be gained from it, she is unlikely to find her attendance rewarding.

Well, I was referring really to the message J is getting from H's therapist (via her H). I suppose this says it all really.

Thank you izzy, that's what I suggested to J- counselling for herself to help her process the hurt she is feeling, rather than to make her take on any responsibility for what has happened. J's father has, I think, told her that she is partly responsible (different wording but that's the gist)

Does it matter who is responsible ?
The relationship is broken down. Full stop.
The husband beat up the wife. He is the guilty party and the dangerous one .
Whatever the provocation there is no justification.

Or do they want her to learn the error of her ways and take him back ? Learn how to be a subservient wife ?

The only message for husband and familiies is that the relationship is over and his beating of her was final straw.
Now to move forward. . Decide on contact financial arrangements etc etc practical stuff.

Methinks the sooner J's dear papa fucks off goes to Australia, the better as at least she'll be spared one load of old cod being dripped into her shell-likes.

As for her h's therapist, I would be extremely wary of any message that came from that direction as it is a) unlikely that they are in possession of any information other than that which her h has told them and b) her h has a vested interest in repudiating liability for his own behaviour presenting himself in the best possible light and anything he says about his alleged therapy or the content thereof cannot be regarded as gospel - or anywhere near it.

In short, no professionals are implying that J is responsible in part or in full for her h having punched her in the face and rendered unconcious in front of her children.

In the event that any such body claims that her h's behaviour is justifiable in any way, shape, or form, you're best advised to direct them to this board so that they can educate a wider audience.

Thanks Izzy. I do understand what you're saying re H and his therapist- totally agree and this is what I've been suggesting to J.

cestlavie- good advice, thank you. Practical arrangements re visiting the children are proving difficult to negotiate by all accounts.

Practical arrangements re J's h's contact with the dc should be remarkably easy to facilitate once she establishes - as is her right- that all/any contact is at her convenience and will subject to supervision by herself and another trusted individual.

I have some concern relating to the impact their f's behaviour has had the dc and would ask what steps are being taken to give them the opportunity to express themselves freely in a therapuetic setting?

Are you in a position to answer the questions I asked on the previous page, waterlego?

It is never, ever, ever acceptable for a husband to punch his wife.
The fact that he knocked her out makes it worse.

It is never, ever, ever acceptable for a husband to punch his wife.
The fact that he did it in front of their children makes it worse.

It is never, ever, ever acceptable for a husband to punch his wife.
The fact that he didn't acknowledge that he did wrong, but instead irritably told her to get up - makes it worse.

I sometimes leave a MN window open on our computer, and DH often reads threads I'm reading, because we like talking over stuff together. (Often ideas of stuff to do with DS, or laughing at stuff, whatever.) He read the OP and was genuinely shocked at what J's husband did to her -truly upset and worried for her, and horrified that her 4 year old daughter was so frightened...

What J's husband did is shocking. No amount of violence is acceptable, to me - those that love, don't hit - but I have never read an OP that made my blood run cold like that, and DH actually said "I had to stop reading when she mentioned her little girl, it was too awful."
He checks in with me sometimes, "I lost that thread, is she okay? Is she still safe?"

I give you this insight into our dull little life to point out that, whatever J is being told by whoever, it is bad, wrong, horrifying and totally unacceptable that her husband knocked her unconscious in front of their children. She didn't MAKE him, she isn't responsible. He lifted up his hand and threw it at her. He chose to do that.

Good advice re H's contact with the DCs- thanks.

I have also suggested to J that therapeutic help for the children would be good. I don't think she or I know what this is or how to access it.

In response to your previous qs:

Re. the solicitor- J has been trying to contact her for several days and having no luck. Very frustrating for J. Apparently she signed lots of paperwork for the solicitor last week re the Occupational Order and obviously wants to know what is happening. Yes, I think this solicitor was a referral via WA or perhaps a local group who are based at the hospital- they were J's first point of contact after the assault.

Were there any other questions?

Thank you blackcurrents, I know you are right.

I know that people don't hit those they love. J is finding it so very hard and hurtful to accept that the man she loved is not who she thought he was. Sometimes she accepts and understands that he has abused her, at other times that seems harder for her to realise.

Has J established whether the Women's Aid advisor who contacted her earlier this week is also the advocate/independent domestic violence counsellor who will be representing her at next week's MARAC meeting?

Re the solicitor; was J referred by WA or another agency or is this person her family solicitor or similar?

With regard to the dc who are at school, advise J to talk to their Headteachers' to access educational psychologists, play therapists, and similar which I am sure will be of benefit to the dc.

J4J - sorry to hear things are so hard. I wish I could say it won't be if... or some other platitude. I can't. This is tough and you have to go through the time to reach a better place. It does not sound as if you have any familial support. Don't let that persuade you that the fault lies with you. It does not.

Even if your husband and yourself were having difficulties - that's what they were, just difficulties. A policeman cannot police, by socking someone unconscious. Families cannot knock members unconscious to make them accept their 'faults'. If you have marital difficulties you TALK.

It sounds as if distance from such unhelpful family opinions is badly needed

Thank you again, this is very helpful. I think J has been in contact with EP at some point re the children because she told me that EP had advised that the children be kept together e.g. H shouldn't be able to take some of the children out and not others (he has suggested this at some points). I will ask J if the EP can offer therapy or refer for play therapy or similar.

As for the solicitor- as I said, I think the referral to this particular solicitor (who I believe is based at the CAB) came from a DV response unit which is based at our local hospital.

I'm afraid I don't know for definite if it is the WA advisor who is going to represent J at the MARAC but I believe so. Will ask.

Thank you very much for your help with this.

It seems to me that J's immediate concern is the occupation order which should have been in place weeks ago.

My concern is that J is not getting either the quality or the quantity of support that should be expected from the police, women's aid, and other agencies such as SS, following the violent assault she sustained.

J is in urgent need of an advocate who can follow through on the various issues that need to be addressed and, in particular, the lack of response from the solicitor and making appropriate representation for J at the MARAC meeting - from which it is to be hoped that police will install an alarm system at her home.

Can you adopt an calm but firm authoritative voice, waterlego, and can you spare the time to make a few phone calls next time you're with J as many victims find it nigh on impossible difficult to advocate for themselves following abuse, whether emotional or physical.

IME it can be immense of help to victims if someone - not necessarily qualified or especially knowledgeable - calls the disinterested parties stating that they 'act for Ms/Mrs X' and asks for an update as to current status/progress on their behalf - J would need to be with you at the time as it may be necessary for her to give her verbal consent to information being disclosed to you.

If you are able to perform this service please don't be afraid to kick ass* if any response you receive is less than satisfactory as it is probable that the recipients of your calls are being paid to provide a service to victims of violence.

*mention of Ward Councillors, MPs, official complaints, press/media, etc have been known to result in a speedy concentration of minds, shall we say

I was referring really to the message J is getting from H's therapist (via her H). I suppose this says it all really.

Yes. Do not trust anything this man says. Unless J4J has evidence, disregard it.

And what he did is very, very, very wrong. I left ex for a lot less. I was not punched, or knocked out, and it didn't happen (before I left him) in front of DS. My family fully supported me, as they should and hers should too.

As far as I am aware, the CAB do not undertake legal work per se.

The solicitor that J was referred to may volunteer on a sessional basis at the CAB office she attended but will no doubt work for a local firm.

If J does not have any contact number for her solicitor other than the CAB office, she (or you) should speak to the Manager to obtain the solicitor's office number.

This is highly unsatisfactory of affairs; J should have been referred to a local firm who specialise in dv and family law rather than a CAB office.

I must admit to feeling more than a tad annoyed that J is being undermined by her family and failed by the system at a time when she is most in need of support and encouragement.

izzy I often see people write on this forum that women will get fantastic help from WA/police etc. My experience was not dissimilar to J4J.

Inadequate responses compounded the negative feelings I had and blame/guilt over my situation.

I wrote to WA and discussed how it had made my situation worse.
They were unable to comment as each area governs itself (which does mean each area can be completely variable in it's response/staffing/procedures)

The point I'm trying to make is that if you tell someone they will get a great response from WA and they don't; they will blame themselves - again.

When I have mentioned this before it has invoked two responses; anger and defence of the WA and other women admitting they had a poor response and assumed it was 'them'

I know the WA is a charity. They do a brilliant job but in places where it doesn't work so well the gap between expectation and reality is filled with more self doubt.

I had to give up on help from any agency and look after myself using very good friends. The lingering niggle that maybe the DV was my fault/deserved/normal and I was just making a fuss is still with me. Had the agencies said, we are too busy to help but you deserve help I think I'd have coped a lot better.

Women's Aid are a charity so it's quite possible that they are understaffed/undertrained.

The problem is there isn't anything else.

Despite the fact that women regularly flee with their children from violent dangerous men - the authorities have never thought to set up refuges directly for them to support them. It's left to an organisation that operates on a shoestring with volunteers.

OP I hope you are OK. It's very sad to read he did this to you.

Waterlego my uncle's brother is a solicitor in your area I can send you his details if J's solicitor is not making progress.

< hoping it's not him already! >

J - I've had the 'psychiatric' help - It was not to try to get me to understand the pressures dh was under though. Rather it was to examine why I felt that it was acceptable to be treated so badly by dh. (It will come as no surprise that the principle reason was how I was treated as a child)
Dh was having his own therapy to help him understand why he was behaving as he was (again no surprise that it stemmed from his own abusive childhood).
We have both had to examine our own behaviours and make changes.
But the starting point for me was that, 'objectively', it was not ok for me (or dc) to be treated badly. Of course in the beginning I had a hard time actually accepting that as I was filled with doubt, guilt, anxiety and all sorts of other negative emotions because I felt I was contributing to dh's behaviour. We also had lots of dc close together btw - It's not an excuse.

Amverytired - great name as I am so exhausted can only read this one - can you tell me more about your circumstances as it sounds similar to mine. I have just booked a doc appointment for this afternoon as I cannot stop crying and can't sleep either and i have 4 children to look after by myself.