Think I have decided to forgive him for this, wondered if others would do the same

[kittyfishersknickers]

This happened a few months ago but is something I'm still thinking about. We were sleeping in the same bed but I had made it clear that I didn't want to have sex and he was fine with this. I was wearing pyjamas (well, leggings and top) to reinforce this fact. When we turned the light out I settled on my side facing away from him and after a few minutes he scootched across the bed and starting nuzzling me. I warned him not to as it would be bound to turn him on and he would want it to lead to things but he carried on. He tried to take my leggings off but I told him this was annoying and to stop, same when he put his hand up my top. Even though I kept telling him not to, he held onto me quite firmly and started having sex with me. After a few minutes he could tell I was not really into it and stopped, but then lay there fidgeting and obviously not about to go to sleep as he was so frustrated, so I said he could carry on.

For a while he refused to admit that he had done anything wrong, saying that I hadn't used a special safe word we have used before, and that because I had let him at the end it validated the whole thing. I did see his point, although still wasn't that happy. But we talked about it again recently and now he admits that he was too pressuring and went too far. There was nothing violent about any of it and he is now very sorry he did it, and I think now actually realises what his actions could be called. At the end of the discussion he seemed pretty upset by this and so I told him it was OK.

Do you think it's possible to do something like that but really not intend it and to never do it again?

I don't think it's a secret conspiracy theory thing, more an extreme selfishness. You know how I people might sometimes cut a cake to ensure they get a bigger piece? They might not be thinking to themselves in clear terms "I want more cake so what everyone else might want doesn't really matter, it's not a big deal, just a slice of cake", but underneath that's what they feel.

Well, for him your ownership of your OWN BODY is not a big deal, and nor is your ability to trust him and feel safe in your own home. It is all trumped by his wish to use your body as if you have no say in the matter, as if you had no brain and wishes of your own. He is wrong, and he just doesn't realise or care that he is wrong.

Does he have strong views on "women's role" in other areas of life at all?

Conspiracy theory is the wrong term, I meant that I was feeling like there was some misunderstanding and now everyone had this picture of my relationship that doesn't correspond to how I see it. ElephantsandMiasmas that's a good way of explaining it. I think on one level he must have known what he was doing but trying to get him to see how that sort of behaviour would be objectively viewed is difficult.

He doesn't have particularly strong views about what women should and shouldn't do.

Looks like marital rape to me. If it walks like a duck etc

Up 2 U whether you forgive him or not but at least be clear about what you're forgiving him for...

OP sometimes we imagine "abusive" realtionships as the extreme ones. So it is people who get beaten up and badly physically injured while being raped that are being abused. But many abusive relationships are not abusive at these levels, but are clearly abusive.

Also many relationships where a partner is abusive also have plenty of times where the same partner is caring, fun and considerate. The latter behaviour doesn't mean that someone can't be abusive. Few people are all bad, with most being a combination of both. It is the same with someone who is abusive.

The fact that you let him at the end kind of sounds like you are worn down by him or at least heavily pressured by him regularly. A partner doesn't have to ever be physically abusive to constantly wear you down so that they get what they want. If this is the case, it isn't good. A decent partner will want you to be happy and want to do things that make you happy.

And by that I don't mean grand gestures such as taking you away for a weekend. these kind of gestures are easy to make. I mean doing everyday things to make you happy. Does he do this?

He had no right to do that to you. You had made it clear you didnt want to and pressuring someone into having sexual relations with you is not classed as rape i dont think, but sexual assault? Not sure though! GET RID OF HIM, He will only do it again. x

I didn't see my ex's actions as rape for a long time. It's a slippery slope OP.
No is no.

I think this is one of the problems of MN. Everyone says to you "it is abuse" and it just doesn't fit in with your image of your relationship, so you dismiss what people are saying to you.

Think about it though, he had sex with you, without your consent. That is rape. Maybe he is nice to you a lot of the time, but abusers normally are - otherwise people wouldn't stay with them.

I doubt he does think what he did is that wrong, he has probably justified it to himself. In exactly the same way you don't want to think of yourself as being in an abusive relationship, he doesn't want to think of himself as a rapist.

Please think about getting rid of this guy, OP, he will do it again. He doesn't even think what he's done is wrong, so what's stopping him.

EllenandBump, she said no. It is rape.

ellenandbump - He physically held the OP down so he could have sex with her. It was rape - although probably impossible to prosecute.

Then if she was held it is rape and she should get out of the relationship as quickly as possible. x

Whether she was held or not is quite out of the question, EllenandBump.

Well you've been in a relationship with him a while so at least you must know him quite well.

From what you said about him looking after you and your relationship histories I'd hazard a guess there might be a bit of an age gap? It's not unusual for relationships like this to have a bit of a status imbalance, if that's the case. Sometimes your tone sounds unsure, maybe that's what we mistook for fear, almost as if you don't quite know what's okay in a normal, adult relationship and you're looking for guidance as to his actions. You are an equal in the relationship. you should be. You should be able to initiate sex, refuse it, set the tone for it, guide it and talk about it openly if you feel the need. Do you feel you can do all those things? Do you feel his equal?

At the very least it was incredibly selfish, aggressive behaviour that he then tried to minimise and blame on you. That's shitty, whatever way you look at it.

Again, when you say 'trying to get him to see how that behaviour would be objectively viewed is difficult' it sounds like a communication and imagination problem. If you're not afraid of him, are you brighter than him, kitty? You sound very bright and he sounds like someone who wants things in basic, black and white terms (you said you forgave me though?!) Not so keen on the black and white when it was about yes or no, though was he.

I guess sometimes when in a relationship it is hard to see one thing in isolation. But the scenario you describe that you say no to sex but then your partner holds you down and does it anyway can be classified as nothing other than rape IMO.

I am so sorry about this, it must be really hard to absorb. But I do think you should speak to someone in RL, perhaps one of the helplines, to get a bit of guidance about this from someone experienced in interpreting/responding to this sort of thing.

I could not forgive something like that, however good the rest of the relationship was.

Ellenandbump - she said no, that's what makes it rape (in law).

You was in bed with your DP and you'd told him you didn't want sex, and were wearing pjs. He rubbed up against you and you told him to stop. He put his hand down your pyjamas and you told him to stop. He put his hand up your top and you told him to stop. He held onto you quite firmly and started having sex with you even though you kept telling him not to.

What would you say to a friend who told you that?

It's not your fault. From what you said you told him you didn't want to have sex with him on at least 5 separate occasions. What happened afterwards is more common than you'd think when rape occurs within a relationship - and that's what this was, rape. Rape is about someone putting their penis inside you without your consent. Fullstop. And that's what he did. You said no, a lot. He held you in position and penetrated you. It doesn't matter that he didn't hit you or threaten you, it doesn't matter that you weren't screaming, it doesn't matter what happened afterwards. People seem to think that some of these additional factors are required to class an attack as rape. They aren't.

'special safe word'

l'm sorry but have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds. You are two adults allegedly mature enough to have a sexual relationship yet not for him to know that 'No' means 'No' and for you to realise that is a problem. He's obviously got form for this to need a 'special word'.

And when someone you love and trust betrays that trust so completely, you are quite likely to be in shock. How you reacted afterwards doesn't mitigate what he did.

I think the one important thing to hold onto now Kitty is that you can choose to dump him at any time. You don't have to do it immediately if you want to take time to think things through. When If you decide that you do want to leave and need to ask for help and support, the help and support will be there.

I don't think he could apply that word to himself and I don't think I can either. When i say he held me I mean I was lying on my side and he had his arms around me. He wasn't pinning me down

so, you have come full circle again, Op ? From forgiveness, to doubt, to rationalising, to bargaining, to denial

It's a very common pattern, and one you are likely to look back on in years to come, and see it exactly as I describe it

All is well in your world, even after reading the concern for you shown here ?

No, all is not 'well in my world' but I don't feel that I can describe myself as a rape victim

Just read your first post and pretend someone else wrote it.

'Special safe words' are for advanced BDSM stuff, not 'no thanks I don't feel like it' on a school night.
Were you really saying 'No, stop it' or just being a bit 'I'd rather not' but not being assertive?

He shouldn't have gone ahead, it sounds as if he has a very one-sided selfish approach to sex, totally unloving, so for that reason alone, it was a horrible thing to happen. Prepared to treat you like a piece of flesh in the bed to have sex with.

Do you have a fair and equal communication with each other in other areas of your lives? He doesn't dound like a good communicator, and lacks any empathy or sensitivity.

Whether it is technically rape or not it sounds a horrible way to live.