Think I have decided to forgive him for this, wondered if others would do the same

[kittyfishersknickers]

This happened a few months ago but is something I'm still thinking about. We were sleeping in the same bed but I had made it clear that I didn't want to have sex and he was fine with this. I was wearing pyjamas (well, leggings and top) to reinforce this fact. When we turned the light out I settled on my side facing away from him and after a few minutes he scootched across the bed and starting nuzzling me. I warned him not to as it would be bound to turn him on and he would want it to lead to things but he carried on. He tried to take my leggings off but I told him this was annoying and to stop, same when he put his hand up my top. Even though I kept telling him not to, he held onto me quite firmly and started having sex with me. After a few minutes he could tell I was not really into it and stopped, but then lay there fidgeting and obviously not about to go to sleep as he was so frustrated, so I said he could carry on.

For a while he refused to admit that he had done anything wrong, saying that I hadn't used a special safe word we have used before, and that because I had let him at the end it validated the whole thing. I did see his point, although still wasn't that happy. But we talked about it again recently and now he admits that he was too pressuring and went too far. There was nothing violent about any of it and he is now very sorry he did it, and I think now actually realises what his actions could be called. At the end of the discussion he seemed pretty upset by this and so I told him it was OK.

Do you think it's possible to do something like that but really not intend it and to never do it again?

Ok

Don't call it rape

This is your experience, after all

it still happened

Does not calling it rape make you feel any better ?

After I was date-raped I continued to socialise with him

I couldn't call it that, for a long time, because that would have meant facing up to it

you see, I wasn't the kind of woman who put up with that, who would tolerate it, that it happened to

except I was no matter how much I tried to deny it to myself

'Rape' and 'victim' are words that are too emotive for you to deal with, which is fine. They are hugely emotive words. I for one don't like 'victim' for myself in any scenario, even those that would warrant it.

I think it's more to the point that you are being quite closed and simple about the details of the relationship itself, which I totally understand, it's very private. And everyone fear judgement. But there's something about the event that speaks to something else, isn't there?

It is, as I said before, at the very least selfish, aggressive, duplicitous and mean what he's done and how he's handled it. The real issue is not whether or not you, or anyone else, wants to brand you as a 'rape victim'. The real thing that's bothering you is a gnawing sense inside that the man you're with has these qualities and treats you that way. Because it doesn't square with another part of your brain and what you think of him there. Right? Is it like there's two realities, one when you're with him and things are going well and its perfect and lovely and you feel so safe. And another when something bad has happened and people seem to make shrill, judgemental statements when they don't really know him at all?

I think if you were talk about the rest of the relationship a bit more, we might find more of a clue to what sort of relationship it really is and which part of your self to trust.

that is a very good post, tessa

OP, I think I empathise with where you are coming from. In my late teens I was raped in the classic sense of the word. I had therapy, etc, dealt with that.

In my late 20's I had a very similar experience to yours. Boyfriend, loving relationship, I said no but didn't scream it, push him away etc. It wasn't anything I classed as rape at the time but it was profoundly disturbing and I felt very unsettled in the relationship afterwards.

What I came to see, strangely enough about 3-4 months later, was the profound selfishness of his actions. I still don't class it as rape in my head, but I do see it as a relationship-ending act... In the end it wasn't so much that I couldn't have 'gotten over' his actions, it was more that I decided I didn't want to -I didn't want to be in a relationship with someone who had that level of disrespect for me.

He was a great guy most of the time, but that underlying selfishness and sense of entitlement was never going to go away.

My ex didn't - and still doesn't - see himself as a rapist. He was just asserting his rights...this took time for it to sink for me too. But something isn't sitting right with you is it? Do you think this could happen again?

I am still worried about the need to wear pajamas and the reluctance to let him cuddle up - she even put it in words, saying that he would get turned on and want more.
It suggests that maybe she hasnt downright told him 'no' before this, but has given in when she probably wasnt that into it.
is this the first time she had ever told him 'no'?
the 'pre-bed' conversation as well, also seems to indicate that she felt compelled to clearly spell it out to him, and that seems odd in a normal relationship. My partner and I might discuss a big YES to sex, but dont think we have ever discussed a no, unless its dropping a comment about a really heavy period or feeling totally rough or knackered, but certainly not with a 'that means no sex' added on the end.

OP how is the rest of your day to day relationship - do you both work, do you have outside friends, outside hobbies. do you spend time apart, are you close to your family? Does you OH share the domestic side of being together, does he support you to grow as a person?

If it helps you to not call it that then don't. Just remember that the onus is not on the woman when it comes to that act. Even if you weren't held down, didn't scream etc etc you clearly said no several times he ignored you and penetrated you. You did nothing wrong. He did. It's a horrible word that describes a horrible act so it's natural to shy away from assigning it to a person we love or something that happened to us.

Your thread has made my blood run cold, especially as today I saw the rape support lady for the first time. I was subjected to attempted rape early last year.

Refusing to take NO for an answer is rape in the eyes of the law; this law is to protect people. To protect from physical pain, which may last minutes or a lifetime, and from emotional trauma which ruins lives.

It took a while to understand what he did to me. He was so nice, then so brutal and disrespectful, then so nice I feel so angry thinking about him.

It has taken so long to get my head around it, and to be honest, I'm still not there yet.

What he did, why he did it, why he ignored my refusal, why I didn't scream, why I didn't smack him, why I excused his behaviour, why I saw him again and slept with him. All that has been going round and round my head for months. I am not comfortable with someone making a victim of me; I'm feisty and I'm not afraid to say what I want/think/mean, yet as a direct result of his behaviour I turned into someone I did not recognise, and that is because I am traumatised

My ability to trust is all over the shop, work relationships have suffered and my sickness levels (stress, trauma) are so high they are being watched by HR. I could lose so much, and all because I trusted someone so seemingly nice.

oh yeah, I didn't scream or punch or kick either

and I am the feistiest fucker in the world in other situations

mari, I have seen your psots before, I am sorry x

I don't want to answer all the questions that have been asked, hope that's OK. He is a fair bit older than me.

I wore pyjamas to bed because I knew he would want to have sex with me and more so if I was naked. I suppose in the past he has persuaded me but its not the same as this.

Course you don't have to. We can take no for an answer. Just take your time and feel your feelings and think your thoughts xx

Thanks AF, every week I seem to turn another corner with it.

Kitty you don't have to tell us anything you don't want to.
What happened to me was also a matter of months ago, and the support lady I saw today was so helpful. I said I feel like it all comes in stages, the coming to terms with it, and that I don't feel like I'm there yet, as in I haven't come to terms with it. She said that as it's only been months, it is still early days. Great, more to come!

I'm trying to pluck up the courage to take it further

See, I kind of feel bad because I'm not as upset about it as you are maristellla. Therefore, can it really have been as bad.

To whoever said he is not very articulate - he is intelligent (educated) but perhaps not so good with ideas.

love, if you don't want to answer us you don't have to

you don't have to do anything

but please apply that in your relationship too...and if you are not "allowed" to, then re-think it

you can be "educated" but an absolute neanderthal when it comes to empathy and respect for others

Sudaname, it's not ridiculous to have a safe word. Plenty of people are into relationships where generally no means no but in a BDSM context no can sometimes mean something else.

In the OPs case, they were not doing BDSM stuff, so the safe word wasn't relevant, but I think it's a bit patronising to say it's ridiculous to have a safe word.

I'm so sorry this had happened to you. Maybe call rape crisis for a real life voice to talk about it with.

OP I mentioned last night that you didn't have to answer any questions on here, but it might be helpful to ask them of yourself. I've had this thread in my head all day and yours was the first I looked up when logging on tonight. I had a feeling you would say he was a fair bit older than you. Unfortunately some older men are particularly attracted to young women with little experience of men and relationships, but not for the most obvious reasons. It is because they think a young woman will be more malleable and easier to manipulate. An older woman with a bit more radar can often see danger signs that a young person cannot - and this radar can only be developed through (bitter) experience.

A few of questions for you to ponder, but not necessarily answer on here:

Does he criticise his ex-wife a lot?
Do you try to be the opposite of her?
What are his relationships like with others i.e. his parents, siblings, children, close friends? Does he involve you in those relationships, or keep them separate from you?
Have you felt pressure to do things that have felt uncomfortable to you?
Does he watch a lot of porn?

tessa6 your post is spot on - that is exactly how I feel.

As for the questions from windsorTides,

no
yes
quite distant and not really
sort of
no

Sorry, am really quite conscious that anyone can read this...

My feeling at the moment is that he gives me so much that I can overlook the not-so-perfect moments. It's a trade-off

There's a big difference between "not so perfect" and "rape" though... He's using this safety word idea as a cover, and blaming you. Safety words are normal, but they sure aren't for use with everyday vanilla sex. They are for situations where saying no is part of the fun and you might not mean it - role play, dominating etc. Why the fuck would you not have meant no on an ordinary evening in bed. It's utter bollocks.

I understand what you mean about not being upset enough... It's because it hasn't sunk in. I have barely ever been upset about the abuse I was subjected to in childhood, and my uncle was amazing, like my big brother, knew me better than my parents, took me out etc. That doesn't negate what he did! Reconciling these two different sides to the same person has been one of the hardest things I've ever done and I'm not finished yet - sometimes I have dreams about him and I can forget all the bad stuff. Then I wake up and feel angry and disgusted with my own subconscious.

I guess you might feel like it is impossible to draw up enough anger to leave him because it was a while ago. I understand that, and although 99% of us here will be hoping you do, only you can make that choice. I want to know though - if he did it again, in a week, a month, a year... Would you leave?

I definitely wouldn't forgive this, it makes me feel sick to even think about. We all get frustrated, but the reaction of a decent man a woman not being in the mood to have sex with him is not to want sex with her any longer because it wouldn't be mutual.

Also, why do you have a 'safe word' in the first place - is it seriously for your benefit for sexual role play? or because your husband has a tendency to force sexual activity on you that don't want?

kitty, as everyone else has said, you don't have to say anything on here that you don't want to, and you don't have to make any decisions you're not ready to make.

But in the meantime, keep thinking and questioning things in your own mind. Think about some of the questions you've been asked on this thread and try to articulate the answers to yourself, if not to us.

Also, have a think about the sort of man your parents might have envisaged for you when you were born - the sort of man who would have endeavoured to deserve you, in their eyes. Think about the sort of man you yourself imagined you'd end up with and what sort of qualities he'd have. And then think about the sort of man you'd want your own daughter (real or imagined) to end up with. The sort of man you'd want your son to be.

kitty - you are battling internally - for you, to square the circle as it were, it would be so much easier if you could just forget it and move on - right? just go back to reality, real life as you know it. You didnt feel hurt or threatened, and it didnt bother you until you started to think about it, that nagging feeling that just wouldnt go away....and you cant bring yourself to think of him that way, because it doesnt fit what you know.

you dont have to answer or say anything here that you are not comfortable with - but like another poster said - ask yourself those questions that were asked further up thread...

and, when you have 1/2 hour to yourself, and im complete confidence, phone a rape crisis line and just talk this through for your own sanity. It wont just go away. you now have doubts and they will sit there until you talk it through with someone who is trained, just a quick call to an advice line will do you the power of good. You dont have to think of it as rape if you dont want to, because thats a horrible word that doesnt fit your life, but that aside, phone anyway.

if you take anything from this thread, then it should be to voice your inner feelings on this to another party in RL who will know exactly what you are saying. It will help you.

x

Kitty, you've had some extremely wise words and support on here. Of course you don't have to divulge more than you want to but I hope you are thinking about talking about it in a safe, confidential environment in real life ie through a counsellor? I hope you are okay.

Ps To all those confused about the safe word - I don't think anyone's properly explained it on here. Safe words are used in sexual role play that might involve the woman saying 'no' in character so the couple need a safe word other than no to make it clear the woman really means no outside of the fantasy. I'm actually not talking from experience, I am resolutely boring vanilla, but I know a friend who used a safe word in this way