Possible mumsnet campaign on domestic abuse??

[NettleTea]

The report out today regarding the possible changes in the law regarding domestic violence has spawned a great deal of debate, both in the media and on several forums/closed FB groups.
There are a couple of links [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8948620/Bullies-face-prosecution-in-domestic-violence-crackdown.html here] and [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16175167 here] which give the background.
Some of you may be aware that one of our regular posters spoke on radio 5 live this morning - you can hear her [http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017wygq here] at about 1 hour 24 mins under the pseudonym of 'Susie' as she tells her story, and how Mumsnet was a lifeline for her. Earlier today I wrote to Mumsnet Towers to see whether we might rally their support in campaigning for this issue, especially given Mumsnet's role in helping women to identify that they are in abusive relationships, to support them if they decide to leave and to offer advice and further support as they go through that difficult process. One of the most devastating aspects of being in an abusive relationship which isnt violent is the gradual erosion of the woman's (or men's, I acknowledge that its not gender specific) self esteem and trust in her own judgement, and the shifting sands of what constitutes normality, and that is often where MN comes in, helping to identify a relationship which is abusive when nobody is getting physically hurt. The comments on the Telegraph thread above, (although not as frustrating as those in the daily mail) clearly show how misunderstood emotional abuse is, and I feel that MN and particularly MN members who are living it, and have been through it, really have voices that should be heard.
MN Towers suggested I start a thread here to see the amount of support out there for their contribution to the ongoing discussions, and whether we feel that this is a campaign that they should get behind, and in what form it would best take place, so thoughts please....

No Oberon, I was merely saying that the perpetrator courses provided by the Freedom Programme are no longer running, nothing to do with you or your situation, as I don't know your back story.

The reason I know this is because my abusive h rang to ask for help, and all there was was a home study pack. BUT as we know, abusers are very manipulative and lie a lot, which is why perp programmes have integrated partner support as a massively important element.

As far as my situation is concerned, h has been in therapy for over a year, has referred himself to a perp programme, and says he has done these home study packs....and I can say, without any shadow of any doubt, that NOTHING has changed. NOTHING.

I would just like to add, that in real life, one of the most supportive people to me has been a friend who was in an abusive relationship with his gay partner.

To those fixated on gender...you know, really, take another look at what your agenda actually is...tough, but really look inside.

...sorry...going on...

The reason that nothing has changed is because his sense of identity is still missing, so he sees me as an extension of his constructed image of himself.

That actually has sod all to do with me does it?

I'm not fixated on gender.

It's just that I can see what's plainly before me.

The vast majority of victims are female. The vast majority of perpetrators are male. But it's not a gender issue, oh no.

Oberon there is a DV counselling service in my area which offers counselling to both male and female victims, perhaps there is something near you? I don't know whether this is a helpful starting point: www.counselling-directory.org.uk/abuse.html

I don't know about the freedom project in particular, because it is very gender specific in its delivery, and I don't think that mixed sex courses are run, so it might be more difficult to find. I know there is a home study pack aimed at women, I wonder if there is one aimed at male victims? It might be worth contacting them to ask, if the same author has written another one.

Singingprincess I'm finding it difficult to understand what you're meaning in your last few posts, but I don't see how acknowledging that DV also happens in same sex relationships means that it's, again, not a gendered issue. In fact I have some stats which I'll see if I can find...

Oh I see sorry the third post was carried on from the first in the three, missed that at first.

I am trying to say that as I have researched this, I have found that the pathology of the abusive mindset is very narrow. It is more likely to be the mindset of the male for LOADS of reasons...familial, societal, religious etc.

So, while I don't doubt for one moment that most abusers are male, there are abusive people across the spectrum of humanity.

I think that Patricia Evans' work is quite useful in that she identifies the narcissistic tendencies in abusive behaviours and abusive thinking with her teddy bear analogy, and explains very well why this inevitably means that men are more likely to be abusive than women. Men are discouraged from expressing their real feelings, as "big boys don't cry", they become disconnected. The disconnected feelings have to go somewhere, they go into the partner. If the partner then shows any sign of autonomous human existence, the abusers very identity is threatened. Alexander Lowens explains the same thing in a more formal and academic way.

Now I can see this in both h and my mother...incredibly clearly.

It explains the superfast attachment....they are projecting who they think you are onto you, and when you are not that creation, that image of their own creation, their identity crumbles...it is not narcissistic rage....it's terror, hence the need to micro control, lest the terror takes over.

There is a ton of work on this...Adam Jukes probably deserves a mention too, but it seems to me, that it needs to be brought together, and a coherent and cohesive response created.

It also explains the isolation...if the victim is interacting with other human beings, it confirms her separate and autonomous identity doesn't it?

It explains why the abused end up feeling as though they don't exist...because in the eyes of the only person left in their lives.....they don't.

struwelpeter Respect actually run the Men's Advice Line (the "official" government funded one). I have spoken to them, but they weren't aware of anything. Then again, although well-meaning I haven't personally found them to very useful. I've found the Mankind helpline to be much better at providing both practical advice and emotional support.

makeyerowndamndinner If you could find anything I'd be extremely grateful! My support worker gave me a copy of the book that goes with the freedom programme ("Living With The Dominator") a while ago. She 'facilitates' (is that correct?) the course herself and has been through some of it with me in some of our sessions.

Obviously it's written for female victims and so explains causes in certain terms, but if you take that part out the patterns of behaviour the author describes bear an uncanny resemblance to how my ex was with me. In fact, both my counsellor and support worker have been able to predict with amazing accuracy what my ex would do. It's spooky. The back of the book has a quote from a course attendee that reads "Pat Craven seems to know my husband". I know what she means!

The local WA doesn't provide a service for men right now, but one in a neighbouring county does. As it happens I had a regular session with my support worker this afternoon and she told me that the local one is considering starting a support group for men. It's still just in planning, but they've hired someone to run it and she asked if she can pass on my contact details so they can ask my opinion about how it might be formulated.

I posted earlier about how I'd recently taken part in a consultation exercise for the county council. Well something else I found out today is that as a result of what people said they're planning to amend future awareness materials so that they will all carry the Men's Advice Line number. It's a brilliant result! I can't emphasise enough that seeing DV portrayed as only one-way in gender terms can be a real deterrent for men in terms of seeking help. We all have abusers telling us that nobody will believe us.

singingprincess Sorry, I just wanted to clarify what you were saying and I think my question might have been a bit terse. I've posted about my story on here before, but don't feel it would be appropriate to get into it on this thread.

I've been wondering about the MH aspect as well. My ex definitely has MH issues, largely as a result of a very abusive childhood (mostly at the hands of her mother). She's very much a victim herself. After over thirteen years I just couldn't take anymore, but I do feel awful about what she went though as a child.

As a general observation I would like to say that I think WA does some amazing work. They have really helped a good friend of mine. My bottom line is always that no one should have to live as I did, and that's why I would support a campaign, however it is framed.

BertieBotts, sorry that last gargantuan post of mine took so long to type out that I missed your post! I did manage to find a counsellor earlier this year who is actually a DV specialist and she's been great.

The changes in the new law do state that the abuse can be between either or any sex, and also family members - so I am wondering whether parents come into this at all. Have been reading toxic parents and the damage inflicted by EA is horrific, longlasting and has the potential to follow through the generations if unrecognised and unchecked - several posts mention the abusers damaged family, but often the victim too has suffered abuse which almost sets them up for following the pattern into their adult relationships. So much secrecy behind closed doors,

Its interesting to note that they want to include under 18s too, as the mid teens seem to be particularly troubled by abuse in their early relationships which set an abnormal pattern. I dont want to derail the crux of this thread to get into speculations as to why this is, but it further highlights the need for education on relationship boundaries, possibly starting with friendship boundaries/bullying in primary school, and moving that into the relationship arena during the early years of secondary.

The 'red flags' seem so obvious, simple and succinct one would almost imagine they should be up on every school common room wall, and in every doctors surgery across the country.

To confirm that both h and I come from supertoxic families. There is a frightening similarity in fact, histories of incest, class A drug abuse, alcoholism, to name just some of the chaotic horror of it all....

My mother and H were both sexually abused as children, by their older brothers. Now that didn't pop up out of the blue...I have a sense that it actually goes back generations....and it is hidden, it is scapegoated... it is denied.

And from the outside, it all looks so normal!

it would be nice to get support for children when you have left an abusive relationship, instead of having to deal with children who are suffering whilst you yourself are trying to get your head round the whole thing yourself.

i am struggling, my children are struggling. because i am struggling I have less energy to try and get support for the children. it would be good to go to the gp and be able to get them referred to somewhere without having to battle on for 11 months with deteriorating behaviour.

Blackeyedsanta most Women's Aid groups have specific childworkers that you can refer your children to whilst also receiving support from the adult workers. These childworkers are specifically experienced in helping children with the effects of domestic abuse. The child worker at our place is absolutely brilliant - she's someone I really admire and she's fantastic with the kids. It's an option for you anyway.

Singingprincess the perp programme we run certainly does not integrate partner support as an extremely important element. I'm slightly horrified by the idea that anyone would suggest to an abused woman that it was somehow her duty to 'support' her abuser through any steps he was taking to address his offending behaviour. Victims are not responsible for 'fixing' or 'helping' their abusers. Nobody I work with would dream of implying to any victim that she should stay with her partner in order to 'support' him through anything. Of course neither would we dream of telling her to leave either - we just present the options...

I can see that you have put an awful lot of thought and effort into trying to understand why your partner is the way he is. I hope you are also getting all the support you want and need.

MYDT - I think Singingprincess meant support FOR the partner/victim not support from them. I know the book recommended, the lundy one, when he talks about the programmes he runs for abusers, they offer a huge amount of support for the victim.

Its making the Larkin poem look like a prophesy here....

I think though that we are at a point in society where we have blown open quite alot of the taboos, where councilling and therapy is not seen as 'navel gazing for the priveledged' and where the research and evidence is backing up to demonstrate that intervention and support can change lives, if there is a will.

The older generation would be the hardest to tackle. The middle aged seem to be fighting to deal or not deal with it, the youngsters look like they are heading off in the wrong direction (having still been f*ed up by parents repeating patterns and the way society has evolved) but they have more chance of making it, and the teens/kids have the best chance yet.

Abuse. Name it. Shame it. Identify it and educate. Build self esteem so that even if those who perpetuate it dont stop, we can stop it happening to us, and to our kids.

Yes dinner. Most perp programmes insist on IPS for a number of reasons. The main reason is that abusers lie, they manipulate, and will do ANYTHING to regain control.

The purpose of the IPS is to keep a handle on the truth for starters, so that abusers can no longer kid themselves in their state of denial. Everything gets back to the programme, any intimidation any coercion, all gets thrown right back at them.

I know one survivor, who realised once and for all that their really was NO hope for the relationship as a result of this kind of support via a perp programme.

This kind of support helps to shine that light in their dark murky mindset.

In this way too, I have found the Respect phoneline more helpful than WA, now I know what I've gone through. They KNOW these men, and all their manipulations and lies.

there

In fact Lundy says that perp programmes MUST include the partner in order to have any effectiveness at all...I know that ALL the Respect ones have the same policy.

Blackeyedsanta - check with your GP surgerty. Ours have child psychologists that your children can be referred to if need be. Go and talk to your HV too. If your children need assistance, please try and get someone to help, there should be help out there, you just need to track it down and ask for it.

good luck

Ah right yes, I misunderstood you.

If the partners are still together then feedback from the victim can of course be invaluable. It's the only real way there is of measuring any sort of outcome. And the victim will also be receiving her own support to run alongside.

I have to say I often find it heartbreaking though - the amount of hope and faith the women I work with sometimes place in these perp programmes. They think their partner is going to have an epiphany and it will all be ok. It is incredibly rare that that happens. Because what you're essentially asking these men to do is to change their entire world view.

The majority of men on the Move On To Change Programme are referred by the courts or social services. They have to go as part of an order, they're not there because they genuinely want to change. I tend to hold out more hope for the self referrals.

There is a man that comes to speak to the blokes on our programme. He is an 'ex' (and I use that word very loosely) perpetrator. He tells a shockingly sad story of how he lost his children and lost his wife and came to hate himself for what he had done. He has another partner now, but, and it is a very big BUT, he says openly that he has to stop and question himself all the time. He is still controlling and has a tendency to be abusive despite everything. If his partner wishes to go out with her friends his immediate visceral reaction is to want to prevent her. He has to ask himself all the time: is what I'm about to do/say ok? He clearly finds it exhausting and his partner reports that he is still controlling. And this is a man who desperately wants to be different and who is considered a success story in the sense that he comes and talks to other men on the perp programme.

I actually feel for him. He knows full well his abusive behaviour destroys the people close to him and sabotages his relationships and I genuinely believe that he is trying - but at the end of the day, this is who he is. It's all an exercise in damage limitation as far as I can see - he hasn't actually changed.

I guess so many women have the combination of years of conditioning from the perp, clinging to hope for the lovely bits at the beginning of the relationship/nice cycles/empty promises and the huge pressure from family and society to 'work it out' because marriage is something you need to stick at as a woman, especially if you have children, and there is such an overwhelming ignorance of what domestic abuse actually is. Its no wonder really that it is so difficult to leave and to break from all the expectations and dreams

ElfenorRathbone i can't comment on what the police think about the BCS but it is seen as having serious flaws (it may be more accurate than police figures, I am not saying it is or isn't) . On a personal level how much detail are you going to want to divulge in an interview with a complete stranger anyway? Lots of people wouldn't want to discuss anything upsetting (i.e DA). And there are good reasons why crime statistics are mistrusted by the general public.
makeyerowndamdinner he may not have changed yet but he seems on the road. People can and do change but it takes a very long time for the processes and new habits to become automatic. It is exhausting and he may or he may not get there.

Re BCS- i mean not even to discuss, how many people will not even admit to having been a victim or certain crimes (i.e those that carry stigma, shame, bad memories etc).

Roses the vast majority of the literature regarding perpetrator programmes show similar outcomes.

A minority of men change their behaviour to some degree. Some of them will cease to be physically abusive, however the tendency to be controlling almost always remains because it is part of their core personality.

Having said all that, I would agree with you that all humans have the capacity for change and I think the perpetrator programmes have to be regarded as a force for good because what's the alternative? Throw up our hands and say that we won't even try? We have to keep chipping away I think.

I think that the men who really do want to change...like your example, need FAR more than a perp programme...they need that, but they also need intensive personal therapy too. I read that over 80% of abusers have personality disorders...which is becoming more treatable, but is a VERY serious MH problem.

It would also make things SOOOO much easier if the deeply ingrained misogynist attitudes in society....as exemplified by the revolting comments under the articles on Wednesday, on Th Daily Mail (no surprise there then) website, and the Telegraph...and even on here, although I see that thread was removed.