Possible mumsnet campaign on domestic abuse??

[NettleTea]

The report out today regarding the possible changes in the law regarding domestic violence has spawned a great deal of debate, both in the media and on several forums/closed FB groups.
There are a couple of links [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8948620/Bullies-face-prosecution-in-domestic-violence-crackdown.html here] and [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16175167 here] which give the background.
Some of you may be aware that one of our regular posters spoke on radio 5 live this morning - you can hear her [http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017wygq here] at about 1 hour 24 mins under the pseudonym of 'Susie' as she tells her story, and how Mumsnet was a lifeline for her. Earlier today I wrote to Mumsnet Towers to see whether we might rally their support in campaigning for this issue, especially given Mumsnet's role in helping women to identify that they are in abusive relationships, to support them if they decide to leave and to offer advice and further support as they go through that difficult process. One of the most devastating aspects of being in an abusive relationship which isnt violent is the gradual erosion of the woman's (or men's, I acknowledge that its not gender specific) self esteem and trust in her own judgement, and the shifting sands of what constitutes normality, and that is often where MN comes in, helping to identify a relationship which is abusive when nobody is getting physically hurt. The comments on the Telegraph thread above, (although not as frustrating as those in the daily mail) clearly show how misunderstood emotional abuse is, and I feel that MN and particularly MN members who are living it, and have been through it, really have voices that should be heard.
MN Towers suggested I start a thread here to see the amount of support out there for their contribution to the ongoing discussions, and whether we feel that this is a campaign that they should get behind, and in what form it would best take place, so thoughts please....

[Alambil]

isn't it free? Really? The one I just told someone about is... I agree about the childcare and area coverage though; that is something that needs addressing

[Jux]

I'm with Bertie Botts. I want my dd to educated to recognise the signs and keep run right away.

[Jux]

And well done "Susie", that must have been incredibly hard. You made me cry.

[BertieBotts]

Oh hang on, I might be wrong - they have an option to pay an invoice on their site, and nowhere does it say explicitly that it is free. But there's nowhere it says how much it costs, either. So I did make an assumption. I would imagine that it changes then depending on where it'e being held and perhaps on an income basis?

[NettleTea]

this thread seems particularly relevent
listen up

[Tortington]

thanks elfenor. well the message i would like them t put their weight behind is to make domestic violence a crime



i would like it to appear as such on crb checks etc.

[brandrethmupp]

I had no idea about domestic abuse until mumsnet. I totally agree that education about this would be invaluable. I'm always encouraged when I see poster campaigns but I wish they didn't say things like, 'Are you a victim of domestic abuse? If so ring...' If like me they don't even know what this is they might think they're in a normally functioning relationship anyway. Poster campaigns should detail the types of behaviours that are unacceptable in a relationship.

[BertieBotts]

Yes, brand. Such a good point. I liked the ad campaigns aimed at teenagers, they were excellent.

Custardo you reminded me of the other point I completely forgot to make. Proper investigation into the link between low level DV and family annihilators, serial killers, serial rapists. Every single time there is an incident on the news, the first few reports are neighbours, colleagues etc saying "But he seemed so normal" and then within a few days, weeks, the exes come out of the woodwork and it turns out their relationships were abusive. Every time. Okay, not all men who are abusive will go on to do these horrific things, but there's a correlation there and IMO it needs to be analysed, pretty urgently. This from earlier in the year is fantastic, as a start. Not enough though. There's evidently some correlation in the kinds of thought patterns which enable someone to abuse without guilt and those who go on to commit these atrocities, can we not find out what they are and pre-empt them?

[HoudiniHissy]

Fascinating discussion, I am enjoying it very much. some awesome points here.

Count me in to whatever....

[NettleTea]

the BBC link in the 2nd post also identifies that it is the 'coercive control', what we would call emotional abuse on this thread, which is a much more common pre-cursor to homicide than any previous show of violence, and yet most people wouldnt know what 'emotional abuse' was until it was far too late.
There seems to be a woeful amount of speculation that its just the case of a one off winge about saying something a bit nasty, the odd rude comment. They just dont get it. they really dont. They dont understand the process which sucks otherwise intellegent people into these relationships, and the methods employed to systematically and slowly destroy them.

[Tortington]

i think emotional abuse is much more difficult to quantify whereas a hit/slap/punch is what it is and thats that.

emotional abuse can be relative.

there is the out and out - shouting or name calling - easily quanifiable, but they are cleverer than that, slowly sucking away your self esteme, constant criticising, installing false belief systems (like your kids will et taken away/you wont have anywhere to live/no one else could ever love you etc)

there would have to be a cumulative reporting mechanism and the education to use such a mechanism? this is where technology comes into its own, to recordd these instances in a blog and then when read all together they can easily be seen as a whole

[BertieBotts]

I think it would be great if it was talked about more too, I admit I'm a bit of a hypocrite on this level because I don't tend to talk openly about XP's emotional abuse anywhere other than on mumsnet, but it's attitudes like the Mail's which put me off, the phrase emotional abuse was in quote marks every single time it was mentioned in the articles, like it's some made up phenomenon by those silly hysterical women - and the comments - not just the comments themselves, but the split between those voted up and those voted down - now I know the Mail and it's comment section isn't an accurate cross section of society, but it DOES put me off saying anything knowing that people hold these views.

(and on an off topic, it's a great argument against like/dislike buttons )

[BertieBotts]

And yes - it's hard to quantify. If I did ever tell anyone about XP's emotional abuse I couldn't really tell them exactly what it was that he did which was so bad. I mean, I can think of a few incidents but generally it was the day to day stuff. And it sounds so stupid. One of the biggest things was that we would have no food in the house when I was pregnant. I have said this to people though and they just look confused and say "But why couldn't you have got some food in?" - there were a whole set of complex emotional/financial control measures around it which prevented me getting food in, but faced with that question, why didn't I? It makes you start to wonder and doubt yourself, think, really? I let someone treat me like that? And you almost forget even for yourself that it wasn't about smiling happily and putting up with it, it was just that you didn't have the option to even question it.

[struwelpeter]

It's the why, why, why didn't I do that or do this that tears you up. I used to rerun incidents thinking there was one pivotal moment that if I hadn't have done x or had done y then the explosion would never have happened. There is an emotional interplay those involved and it's when the abuser goes beyond the pale.

[HoudiniHissy]

I suffered from clinical depression 10-odd years ago. It was about as serious a depression as they come.


I felt talking about it helped break the stigma. DV is the same.

perhaps discussions about depression are a whole lot easier because we have learned to talk more about it as an illness in the last few years.

DV is the next taboo. the more people talk about it, the more it is accepted and understood.

Sad to say, but the more 'middle-class' DV survivors that talk about it, the more the old stereotypes of working class bloke down pub, gets pissed, goes home to beat up wife are challenged.

It needs to be understood that perps come from the highest income brackets to the lowest, that class/breeding/status have nothing to do with the need/ insatiable demand for control. It needs to be understood that DV can happen to ANYONE who doesn't see what is going on around them until it's too late.

The male/female as well as female/male abuse needs to be much better understood by all of society. this stuff needs to be taught in schools, MTV and the like NEEDS to be held up for the vile misogynistic bollocks it promotes. The retailers that produce the over sexualised clothing need to be discouraged from doing so. Boys need to stop having camouflage, action, butch roguish behaviour held up as an objective for them, Women NEED to be able to legitimately state that sexist language is not acceptable, men need to understand that discrimination is not acceptable either BY them or AGAINST them.

Self esteem of both sexes MUST be raised.

[UnlikelyAmazonian]

Very very good post bertie.

I consider what my exH did to us a criminal offence on many levels - child neglect, emotional violence, financial abuse and certainly sexual abuse during the marriage, (though I didn't see it as such then because I was ignorant of red flags and classic manipulative behaviour - behaviours that only MN opened my eyes to.)

When he first ran away, the police - to whom I reported him missing (I didn't know at that point that he was waiting to board a plane to Bangland) - told me that 'even if they found him, if he didn't want to be found by me then they would not be able to tell me where he was or his contact details as he had rights.'

They told me this at close to midnight, in my own front room, as I held our six month old child in my arms, absolutely desperate and knowing that he had drained all our accounts and savings taking all our joint money.

Then the police left. There was no DV officer or abuse expert on hand at all. Just coppers looking bored. It was devastating and mind-blowing to hear that.

The cops rang me an hour later to say they had tracked exH to a hotel room in Heathrow and had persuaded him to speak to me. Which I did.

If, however, exH had physically knocked six bells out of me then the police would, presumably, have gone to Heathrow and arrested him. My point is, he DID knock six bells out of me - psychologically, emotionally, financially and many other --allys.

And in stealing our money and abandoning his son, in paying no maintenance and picturing himself scuba diving in Thailand on Facebook - well, that is pretty abusive and IMO criminal isn't it?

I'm in.

[InfiniteFairylights]

You have my support

[MakesXmasCakesWhenStressed]

I'd say the education of HCPs has to rank pretty highly. A thread I've been involved in horrified me most when the woman in question went to her GP is desperation and was put in a more dangerous position when the GP basically told her she was exaggerating, suggested joint counselling and got a HV to call her at home, thereby revealing to the AP that she had sought help...

Not to mention the policemens' chummy chummy let's all be reasonable response to the AP when she did get out.

I am fortunate, my only real experience of DV and abuse is through this thread or second hand, but it strikes me that, as with rape, the first step in helping a victim is for someone who is being confided in to simply say "I believe you" - yes?

[HedleyLamarr]

BertieBotts for pm. Not even joking. The work you do on here is brilliant. There are others too, AnyFucker, IzzyWizzy, etc etc. Perhaps if you lot could share the job.

[singingprincess]

It's about rolling out what happens here, on this board, to the wider society isn't it?

Yes, red flags, yes, something like the Freedom programme, yes changes to the law. But mostly it's about changing attitudes and mistaken beliefs, ie that abuse= nagging.

There have been incredibly successful campaigns WRT smoking, drink driving etc, making those things increasingly socially unacceptable, it's that kind of campaign that's needed I think.

Also, the abusive man must be dealt with. They are so similar to one another, the pathology needs to be better understood, so that therapies can be developed which actually work. I read somewhere that 80% of abusers have a personality disorder....there are treatments for this already, but clearly, the link needs further research.

And of course support for the women and children to recognise and safely get out, physically and emotionally, from these situations.

I know the MN er on five live yesterday. The experience left her totally shattered, BUT if it helps one woman and her children, it was worth it....she said.

[catherinea1971]

I'm in too..
Early education to help break the abuse cycle is key IMO.
From personal experience and from reading and posting on some of the DV threads there should without doubt be a reform in the law surrounding domestic violence. The police, social services, all health care professionals teachers, indeed all of us need to be re-educated to understand what actually constitues DV, especially the none obvious DV.
I have a 15 yo dd and I worry at how easy it is to fall into the trap of an emotional abuser, her father was one although it is only through reading the many threads on here that I was able to identify that I had been in the situation myself.
There must be a nationwide campaign to highlight the more subtle types of abuse to ensure the general public gain a better understanding.
The extended families and friends of these victims have to be better educated as they are often key to the victim staying within the relationship because of their lack of knowledge of what abuse actually is.

[Snorbs]

I agree that there needs to be better education about the warning signs of abusive relationships. I think that is really important. I remember when I finally realised that what was going on wasn't just a disconnected, random series of bad events but a pattern of abuse. I felt like a house had fallen on me.

But at the risk of accusations of being some kind of MRA shill or doing a "what about the menz", personally I would like to see any MN involvement to acknowledge that men are not always the perpetrators of abuse. They can be the victims.

[catherinea1971]

I have just spoken to dd1 (15yo) she has lessons about all the types of DV at school, even gaslighting. She is at an all girls school and I think that it is likely an exception to what most schools teach.

[catherinea1971]

Men can most certainly be the victims and as such I believe it is likely even harder for them to come forward. A good friend of mine has a brother who is in an abusive relationship, has been for years, he has 3 dc's who are witnessing all of this, he won't leave, she has battered him black and blue and has stabbed him a couple of times, SS have been heavily involved but nothing has been done to stop her from continuing.