Possible mumsnet campaign on domestic abuse??

[NettleTea]

The report out today regarding the possible changes in the law regarding domestic violence has spawned a great deal of debate, both in the media and on several forums/closed FB groups.
There are a couple of links [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8948620/Bullies-face-prosecution-in-domestic-violence-crackdown.html here] and [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16175167 here] which give the background.
Some of you may be aware that one of our regular posters spoke on radio 5 live this morning - you can hear her [http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017wygq here] at about 1 hour 24 mins under the pseudonym of 'Susie' as she tells her story, and how Mumsnet was a lifeline for her. Earlier today I wrote to Mumsnet Towers to see whether we might rally their support in campaigning for this issue, especially given Mumsnet's role in helping women to identify that they are in abusive relationships, to support them if they decide to leave and to offer advice and further support as they go through that difficult process. One of the most devastating aspects of being in an abusive relationship which isnt violent is the gradual erosion of the woman's (or men's, I acknowledge that its not gender specific) self esteem and trust in her own judgement, and the shifting sands of what constitutes normality, and that is often where MN comes in, helping to identify a relationship which is abusive when nobody is getting physically hurt. The comments on the Telegraph thread above, (although not as frustrating as those in the daily mail) clearly show how misunderstood emotional abuse is, and I feel that MN and particularly MN members who are living it, and have been through it, really have voices that should be heard.
MN Towers suggested I start a thread here to see the amount of support out there for their contribution to the ongoing discussions, and whether we feel that this is a campaign that they should get behind, and in what form it would best take place, so thoughts please....

[ElfenorRathbone]

harks back to "hysterical" fumble, doesn't it?

I bet they wouldn't describe a man's resposnses to such behaviour as "sensitive". They 'd describe the woman as a "fucking loony bunny-boiler"

I really hate that people pretend there is no such thing as systemic sexism in our legal system. Most people accept that systemic racism stil exists, but systemic sexism? Nah, we cgot rid of that in the nineties.

[Sparks1]

I said it for the fourth time because its true Elf

It is exactly your attitude that polarises the argument and prevents a reasonable debate to take place. At the same time it also restricts the viability of any meaningful legislation being put in place.

No offence but take your head out of your arse and loose the attitude. It'll serve your argument a lot better.

[fumblebuck]

Sparks1, I hear you. It is definitely not a gender specific issue IMO. I know people where, I'm convinced, the female is inflicting similar pain on the male as I have experienced at the hands of STBXH. However, in Elf's defence, the Cafcass report received on my case really did seem quite belittling.

[Finallygotaroundtoit]

Wanted to post on this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1363842-please-help-answered-phone-to-ow-had-no-idea-now-sick-to-stomach-going-crazy
but it has been derailed enough;

Violence is never excusable or justifiable

The age/size/gender of the perpetrator is irrelevant

The damage caused is irrelevant

DC witnessing violence is child abuse

[ElfenorRathbone]

Look if you want to ignore stats, that's absolutely your choice.

No offence, but I'm not so crass as to tell you to take your head out of your arse, I accept that you have the right to stay in denial if you want to.

If you don't want to believe that a phenomenon which overwhelmingly has one gender as perpetrators and the other gender as victims, is a gender issue, that is entirely your choice.

I will not be telling you to take your head out of your arse. You are more than welcome to leave it there.

[Youllbewaiting]

I thought 1 in 6 men had experienced domestic violence is that true?

[makeyerowndamndinner]

Well, whether it is true or not would depend on a lot of factors I think - primarily how the stats were collated ie what questions were asked e.t.c.

I hit an ex-boyfriend once. He had been sexually and emotionally abusing me for months and the sexual abuse particularly rendered me utterly distraught. I was furious and distressed and I didn't have the skills to protect myself properly so in the absence of knowing what the hell else to do, I hit him.

Now if he was asked by someone whose job it was to collect information on men and domestic abuse whether he'd ever been physically assaulted by a girlfriend, he would quite correctly answer yes. Doesn't mean he was a victim of domestic abuse. He was in fact a perpetrator.

Have one in six men perhaps experienced some sort of name calling, physically violent, threatening incident with a partner or ex-partner? Well yes, possibly.

Have one in six men been subject to a deliberate campaign of emotional, sexual and/or physical violence designed to subjugate and control them and rob them of all self worth? No. I don't think so.

[rosesnewdress]

statistics won't say much if men are refusing to report abuse, unfortunately if the attitude of 'size count's' prevails they are even more unlikely to report it for fear of being laughed at or ignored or told the police have better things to do.
just because you haven't heard of it, just because it isn't widely known doesn't mean it doesn't exist. many issues are kept hidden.
You've all heard of sexual violence being used against women as a weapon of war? But what about against men?
www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men

The organisations working on sexual and gender-based violence don't talk about it," he says. "It's systematically silenced. If you're very, very lucky they'll give it a tangential mention at the end of a report. You might get five seconds of: 'Oh and men can also be the victims of sexual violence.' But there's no data, no discussion."

As part of an attempt to correct this, the RLP produced a documentary in 2010 called Gender Against Men. When it was screened, Dolan says that attempts were made to stop him. "Were these attempts by people in well-known, international aid agencies?" I ask.
"Yes," he replies. "There's a fear among them that this is a zero-sum game; that there's a pre-defined cake and if you start talking about men, you're going to somehow eat a chunk of this cake that's taken them a long time to bake."

"International human rights law leaves out men in nearly all instruments designed to address sexual violence," she continues. "The UN Security Council Resolution 1325 in 2000 treats wartime sexual violence as something that only impacts on women and girls? Secretary of State Hillary Clinton recently announced $44m to implement this resolution. Because of its entirely exclusive focus on female victims, it seems unlikely that any of these new funds will reach the thousands of men and boys who suffer from this kind of abuse. Ignoring male rape not only neglects men, it also harms women by reinforcing a viewpoint that equates 'female' with 'victim', thus hampering our ability to see women as strong and empowered. In the same way, silence about male victims reinforces unhealthy expectations about men and their supposed invulnerability."

Considering Dolan's finding that "female rape is significantly underreported and male rape almost never", I ask Stemple if, following her research, she believes it might be a hitherto unimagined part of all wars. "No one knows, but I do think it's safe to say that it's likely that it's been a part of many wars throughout history and that taboo has played a part in the silence."

[bubblechristmaspop]

Finally 100% spot on. I agree with what sparks is saying as well. With the publicity this site attracts, I think the polarising arguments some have would make a campaign and MN a bit of a laughing stock. Without getting the issue out there.

I'm really up for a MN campaign on dv, with the new changes, use the forums power for good!

However as this forum gets such a lot of press attention. Such a high profile campaign would be futile.

Especially when you have women, saying it's ok to hit your husband if he cheats, even in front of the kids. Women all over thread admitting to battering and pummeling the oh's in the same circumstances.

The Daily Mail would have a field day.

[MakesXmasCakesWhenStressed]

Bubble - noone has said it's Ok that she hit her husband. They said it was an understandable reaction to finding out he had been cheating on her. Not condoned, not something to be repeated, but not at all the same as sustained, systematic abuse and I think it undermines what victims of domestic abuse suffer to compare the two.

[lubbermummy]

I fully support this campaign. If its illegal to hit outside the house, then its illegal to hit inside the house. simple as.

[bubblechristmaspop]

They have though, saying oh I did the same. It's like posts on this thread saying and others trying to downplay male dv. It doesn't happen as often or as bad.

I think people need to be very careful here as the behemoth that is MN can be very powerful. Look how hard and fast the Riven thing took off.

Starting a campaign is all well and good, but the press can't wait to bring people down.

So campaigning against domestic violence, great. Or would the press prefer the middle class mums site as it's described, in justifying male violence shocker!

It's going to be the last isn't it. I think the views some have and the way they word it, any campaign could sadly end up a twist of the men beating women of MN rather than raising awareness of dv.

You need to be very careful when you start campaigning and involving the press as it would do.

I think some people type with their heart and not their head. The riven example was an absolute spot on example of that.

[LittleGingerbreadHouse]

I've just read through this whole thread and want to add my support. What comes across despite the dissent is that almost all the posters care greatly about the issue and want to see better funding for the whole area of education about healthy relationships and support for those trying to leave an abusive one.

I am an intelligent professional but without MN I would not have recognised my own situation and had the courage to leave. My H stalked me on here. I was accused of abusive behaviour. I doubted myself and am still too ashamed to talk about what happened in RL.

I would also be very wary of any campaign that tried to control the media. They have their own agenda and cannot be relied on not to sensationalise and distort issues to make a better story. The best method IMO is to constantly correct misinformation and provide accurate statistics and guidance to those interested or in need of help. And to wear a hard hat!

[BertieBotts]

Well hang on. It is a gendered issue, because although the abuse in itself is the same, underlying motivations are different, public opinion/reaction is very different and the support needed is different. But the gender difference is nothing to do with body size, remember what is this thread about? Emotional, verbal, financial abuse - none of which have anything to do with strength. Physical and sexual abuse can happen when physical strength is mismatched in the "wrong" way too.

[makeyerowndamndinner]

I think loads of people are making some really good points on this thread. I'm open to other views and it's making interesting reading.

But I feel frustrated reading so many assertions that domestic abuse has nothing to do with mismatched size and strength.

We have all accepted that women sometimes abuse men. I don't doubt that it's underreported. All abuse is underreported. I have never stated that for abuse to occur the abuser has to be bigger and stronger than the victim - I don't believe that. And it's true that emotional, psychological and financial abuse are not directly related to size and strength, but they are still related to power, and it remains the truth that more men are in a position of power over women than the other way around. Mens power over women is also normalised and condoned by the unequal society we live in. Lots of people still see it as the natural order of things.

Many instances of domestic abuse that I hear of in my line of work would simply not be physically possible for the vast majority of women to inflict on the vast majority of men. I'm talking physically forced sex. Being physically prevented from leaving the room/house. Being physically restrained for long periods of time.

Rosesnewdress - really really interesting post. I will be definitely be reading those links. Rape as a weapon of war terrifies and disgusts me. I don't doubt that men are also victims. But I'd just like to point out that these victims are being raped by other men, not women, which just goes to prove my point that the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of physical and sexual violence are male.

I seem to be repeating myself. But I guess my main fear is that the new trend towards making DA services for women also include male victims (as oppposed to male victims having their own support services which I would wholeheartedly support) will fix in peoples minds the idea of a kind of 50/50 split where either gender is just as likely to be a perpetrator as a victim, and that the causes and ramifications of domestic abuse are exactly the same for both genders. They're not.

I really really am not seeking to deny that there are genuine male victims. I just think that when you consider the wider picture of the unequal society we live in, female on male violence and abuse is a separate issue.

I really resent being portrayed as some sort of "man-hater" because I say that men are far more likely to be perpetrators than women. That is true. A statement of fact. Nothing more, nothing less.

[singingprincess]

This is why I think that the psychology of abusive people needs to be researched more.

My mother is abusive. She shows the same patterns of controlling behaviour as my h. And she is clearly a woman.

But the attitudes in society make her mad, and h merely bad.

I KNOW that the way h sees himself in relation to the rest of the world is just NOT normal, by any stretch of anyone's imagination. That sense of "victimhood", because they are the victim of some perceived injustice which justifies projecting their split off angst onto their chosen victim, hence the scapegoating and gaslighting, is not REALLY understood. The fact that men TEND to be less connected to their emotions, especially in expressing them, seems to be a major factor in this, making it a gender issue from a psychological point if view. But it's the same thing that makes a man "a man" isn't it?

Clearly there are MH issues going on here, and given how widespread the problem actually is, the research and MH provision seem, at least to me...to be paramount!

Susie is overwhelmed by the response from people by the way, completely overwhelmed.

[ninjasquirrel]

Just to go back to the idea of a MN campaign - I think there are two sorts of possible campaign, one focused on getting the government to do something, the other about raising public awareness of what a normal relationship is and what is abusive. I'm always struck by the number of posters who ask 'is this normal?' when it clearly isn't or who come on here about one issue and then it gradually becomes clear what they are living with. Also lots failing to spot the signs of a controlling relationship right at the start. Perhaps MN could get more media coverage across the spectrum of magazines etc to help raise awareness. Though they should really be doing this stuff in schools! Incidentally I remember seeing a Relate campaign a while back about EA with teddy bears, anyone else see it?

[bubblechristmaspop]

Again people writing with their hearts not their heads.

I think it would be foolish to start a press campaign against dv involving mumsnet. Especially with some of the things written on here lately.

The press aren't the answer to all the worlds ills and are in fact the cause of many.

You have to remember when you start involving the press, they prefer a good scandal as apposed to a positive campaign. The former sells more papers.

So you'll get the press scrutinising posts, mis quoting, twisting, and generally having a bloody good field day on this site atm, where dv is concerned and tackling it.

It's no good saying you just want to focus on xyz aspects of abuse. You don't get to cherry pick your agenda when you get the press involved. They do that.

I thought people would be more media savvy, especially after all that happened with Riven and that campaign that snowballed. Some very naive people on here if they think all the press do is good.

You can't take such a serious campaign to the press and expect to be taken seriously with some of the stuff written against men on these pages. This isn't all about the "menz". This is about a worthy cause that could be shat all over if the press come here and do any digging, which they will.

[rosesnewdress]

makeyerowndamdinner the point of my last post (re male rape) was to show how even very well respected organisations such as the UN security council do not acknowledge that sexual abuse occurs to men , a previous poster mentioned the importance of trusting stats and the official line. I started my post saying that just because something is not not well known or under reported does not mean it does not exist. You have twisted the intention of my post to suit your own political means!

[singingprincess]

So just because the press can be less than responsible....we should do and say nothing? That's bonkers.

[singingprincess]

I think a "red flag" campaign would be brilliant. People ARE media savvy, and they know that the press WILL mangle things to get an angle that sells, but no publicity is bad publicity, and if people learn about red flags...then good!

[bubblechristmaspop]

Princess you never saw the fall out and upset caused by one of these campaigns then. Or the unexpected "OMG how did that snowball" reaction.

OFC publicity is bad, when they start getting the site involved and trawling peoples, sometimes personal musings for a juicy twist. This is real people who post here you know.

Which resulted in all threads about that campaign being deleted from MN, so I beg to differ.

Careful what you wish for.

Publicity is one thing, inviting the press in to a very personal subject, to a lot of posters, with a lot of personal experiences and views open for the press to look at is playing with fire.

Who says the press will go for the red flags angle? They may go for the men beating, boden wearing, mumsnet users, hypocrisy?

I don't think that, but you get my drift. You can't control anything once the press are involved.

There have been many upsets on here when the press have twisted and misquoted post, which they said in the "sanctuary" of MN and weren't expecting it to be in national print.

Just jumping into the press arena, because it's all good publicity and they will say what you want eventually, is foolhardy. Especially as so many have got their fingers burnt on this site and there are lots of papers queuing up to dig at MN.