Possible mumsnet campaign on domestic abuse??

[NettleTea]

The report out today regarding the possible changes in the law regarding domestic violence has spawned a great deal of debate, both in the media and on several forums/closed FB groups.
There are a couple of links [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8948620/Bullies-face-prosecution-in-domestic-violence-crackdown.html here] and [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16175167 here] which give the background.
Some of you may be aware that one of our regular posters spoke on radio 5 live this morning - you can hear her [http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017wygq here] at about 1 hour 24 mins under the pseudonym of 'Susie' as she tells her story, and how Mumsnet was a lifeline for her. Earlier today I wrote to Mumsnet Towers to see whether we might rally their support in campaigning for this issue, especially given Mumsnet's role in helping women to identify that they are in abusive relationships, to support them if they decide to leave and to offer advice and further support as they go through that difficult process. One of the most devastating aspects of being in an abusive relationship which isnt violent is the gradual erosion of the woman's (or men's, I acknowledge that its not gender specific) self esteem and trust in her own judgement, and the shifting sands of what constitutes normality, and that is often where MN comes in, helping to identify a relationship which is abusive when nobody is getting physically hurt. The comments on the Telegraph thread above, (although not as frustrating as those in the daily mail) clearly show how misunderstood emotional abuse is, and I feel that MN and particularly MN members who are living it, and have been through it, really have voices that should be heard.
MN Towers suggested I start a thread here to see the amount of support out there for their contribution to the ongoing discussions, and whether we feel that this is a campaign that they should get behind, and in what form it would best take place, so thoughts please....

[ElfenorRathbone]

You wer posted as a racist?

Oh please, stop with the victim stuff.

No one called you a racist and if you are declaring that they did, it's either because you are not actually very bright and don't understand the conversation (a possiblity given your confused thought process allows you to believe that sexism exists while at the same time, there is nothing to stop women doing exactly the same as men and the only reason they haven't seized half the wealth and power in the land, is becuse they like being poorer and less powerful than men) or because you are breath-takingly disingenuous.

[singingprincess]

All abusers have a victim complex...every single one. It's part of the pathology.

[singingprincess]

All abusers assume they know what other people are thinking, and what other people believe. This is because they have a very wobbly sense of their own identity, and have to project their nastiness on to scapegoats. If not people of another race..ooohhh, let's try people of another gender!

[Sparks1]

Give someone enough rope...

[singingprincess]

Quite....

[singingprincess]

Can we please ignore the "n", and get on with what was a reasoned and intelligent debate on the real issues.

Ta.

[BertieBotts]

Or even realise, rose. Many people are for example raped or assaulted but don't think until perhaps years later, something triggers it or they read something and they realise what happened for what it was. Especially if the crime is one often portrayed in a particular way and their experience was different.

[BertieBotts]

Erm okay I missed a page or so there

[singingprincess]

No, you really didn't Bertie :(

[MakesXmasCakesWhenStressed]

To intelligently consider the concept of ingrained sexism for a moment requires some consderation of what sexism actually means. I suspect that many people regard it in the same way as domestic violence/abuse.

With DV they don't really consider it to be Domestic Abuse unless one partner has raised a hand/done physical damage to the other.

With sexism I suspect that many people do not consider sexism has taken place unless someone is openly discriminated against for something due to their sex, like, I don't know, a boss saying that he fired so and so because she was pregnant.

But how about all the times working mums are expected to just drop everything to look after their sick children, whilst working dads aren't. Where a woman feels uncomfortable asking for time off to see their kid in a nativity play, whilst a man gets applauded. Where a woman pushing a buggy gets tutted at, pushed around, generally treated as a nuisance whilst a dad gets greeted by 'aww, how sweet?' type reactions?

Of course there is some ingrained sexism against men - SAHDs, for example, can have a very tough time socialising, being accepted, coping, but this doesn't inhibit their ability to support themselves, to progress in their careers, to live independently or to carry out day to day tasks.

Ingrained sexism is the stuff that people generally don't even question. That a man crying means something is terribly wrong, but a woman crying must be either hormonal or hysterical, for example.

As long as men think it's acceptable to dismiss a woman's emotions simply because she's a woman (and therefore more emotional) then ingrained sexism still exists.

[MakesXmasCakesWhenStressed]

And Bertie, it's true. It's amazing what kind of behaviour seems acceptable in the general milieu of a relationship, but when considered in isolation with the benefit of hindsight you wonder why on earth you tolerated anyone treating you that way.

[rosesnewdress]

good point BertieBotts its often only with the benefit of hindsight, the passing time, and new experiences that we see something differently.

I think i've been fairly lucky in some respects. My mum, for all her faults ( we had a bad relationship growing up) , did drum it into me that my personal space was mine, that I had the right to say no (to doing things i didn't want to do or being with people who made me feel uncomfortable) and that being touched in an unwanted way by anyone was to be reported to her. As she didn't make the sexual aspect explicit to me (that topic was off limits ), and i was young , I took all that to have a broader meaning . She started this at an early age and i can remember rolling my rolls and thinking how she was going on but I've always had strong personal boundaries (despite having very low self esteem for all of my teens and most of my twenties.) I think she could have approached it better but she did her best. I've come across the odd person who has made me wobble and in one case i stayed longer than in retrospect i should have , but going by the horror story of his previous and next relationship I know I was actually very strong in stopping things as soon as i did .
I just wanted to share as sharing stories is helpful and it is something Mum actually did right for me. Oh she was big on telling us kids that we could do or be anything that we wanted to be if we put enough effort in and never gave up (she had thwarted ambitions of her own and was a frustrated housewife!)

[rosesnewdress]

ha rolling my rolls! rolling my eyes!

[MakesXmasCakesWhenStressed]

That makes much more sense!

[rosesnewdress]

she was actually very bad for me in other ways but i do think its important to reflect on what can be helpful. Nothing is fail proof, nothing will work for all, its the toolbox approach. I'd be interested to hear from others about things that they felt helped them say no or what helped them have strong boundaries, especially when they were young , i'm sure most parents do struggle with how to keep kids safe and what to teach them. Also for me personally, i had to be tough growing up - home was a difficult place , and that can make you either become more vulnerable to others or toughen you up . For me I toughened up (which has it's own set of problems).

[OberonTheHopeful]

As long as men think it's acceptable to dismiss a woman's emotions simply because she's a woman (and therefore more emotional) then ingrained sexism still exists.

Whilst this is certainly true (though I personally feel it might be better to say some or most men) it causes harm the other way around also. I think there are probably a lot of people who think I should have put up and shut up, that men just aren't supposed to show emotion. Look at the press reaction when a male public figure shows emotion.

It goes along with the attitude that I'm sure many people have (not necessarily on MN but in RL generally) that I should have just been able to fend my partner off in some way, after all men are 'physically stronger'. I often tried (and sometimes succeeded) to get away, but it never once crossed my mind to 'push back'. The day-to-day emotional and verbal abuse meant that I just accepted what was coming to me.

My partner also frequently threw things or used other 'weapons' (usually just anything that came to hand) and attacked me when I was asleep, or even just not looking. I'm not sure what I could have done about that, but there may well be plenty of people who would see it as my fault in some way. It's nothing I haven't thought myself. I have tied myself up in knots wondering what I might have done differently so that it didn't happen.

I'd really like to know what people here think: Is it perhaps that part of the problem is stereotyping of both women and men?

[MakesXmasCakesWhenStressed]

True, ingrained sexism exists in the whole 'boys don't cry' thing, but if a man breaks through this and does show emotion he certainly won't get ignored or dismissed, even though it will likely make people uncomfortable. Unfortunately he may also open himself up to ridicule and that's something that I find as distasteful as the whole 'hormonal female' dismissal.

[singingprincess]

My mother was a thrower. I remember an entire tray of four bowls of tomato soup amongst other stuff, hurling it's way towards my dad.

I wonder whether it would be an idea to invite such people as Pat Craven, Adam Jukes, someone from WA/Refuge, Respect, to join this debate.

By the way, Oberon, your presence here is, I think, invaluable...it's the pathology that needs attention, and as much as there are gender issues, some of which you have just brought up, it's the general pattern of abusive behaviours, and where they come from, how to identify them early and how they can be dealt with, that are the issues.

Yes...men not being able to show emotion seems to be a massive point. Patricia Evans seems to think that the male disconnect from sensate function is one of the root causes of abusive behaviours.

[rosesnewdress]

Yes both sexes do suffer from being stereotyped and that does everyone a great disservice. I'd rather attention was paid as singingpriness says to the pathology , rather than the gender.
I personally would prefer it if instead of the term 'men' always being used we talked of 'some men' (same would apply to women- not all women are the same). My partner is lovely, lots of men i know are lovely. Many men I know are far more in touch with their feelings and senses than some women are. Just a small niggle...

[singingprincess]

Fairynuff!!!!

Some men. :-)

[rosesnewdress]

p.s thanks for sharing on here oberon. I had a male friend who experienced very similar things. He had a very real and very justified fear of being knifed by his partner. My ex also recently left his partner saying he knew the violence would only get worse and that one day she'd go for him with a knife. Both incidentally said the emotional abuse was by far the worst aspect.

[OberonTheHopeful]

Singingprincess, that's bizarre, I've also had full plates of food thrown at me, including her Christmas dinner on one memorable occasion. It sounds faintly ridiculous looking back now.

I was thankfully never stabbed, but I have been injured with a knife and had one held to my throat on occasion. Someone said further up the thread that a large proportion of abusers have been identified as having personality disorders. Given that these are thought to develop at any early age (I think the ICD10 definitions require the behaviour to have been present in some form from childhood for a diagnosis, though I may be wrong), it would certainly explain a lot about my XP.

I've also been thinking, and discussing in therapy, if there is something in my background that has somehow set me up in some way. I know I tend to be very trusting and mostly that works well, but there have certainly been some people who've used the fact to take advantage. I had some very bad experiences at (boarding) school and my brother isn't the nicest person. He regularly used to hit me right until we were well into our twenties. So maybe I just expected the abuse from my ex in some way, even if not on a conscious level.

I really need to look at this because I'm worried that I still don't see people coming. Obviously most people are OK, but some do seem to see something in me that they can go for. I have some very recent experience of this (in the context of a friendship, or a supposed one) and it was scary how I just seemed to allow it to unfold to the point where it has now really set me back again. The worst thing is that person concerned has done the same thing before more than once and I just trusted them again.

I was talking last night about relationships and said I was too scared of being hurt to get involved right now. This is partially true, but more than that I'm terrified of just letting go and trusting someone. I was working on this, and getting somewhere, but this recent setback has put me back to square one again in terms of being able to trust and it's frightened me how fragile I seem to be.

So I'm wondering if there's actually a lot mileage in looking into why some people seem to be more susceptible to abusive relationships than or others (or indeed if it's just me)? Further up the thread someone mentioned some sort of psychological toolkit to deal with abusive partners and friends and that sounds like a really good idea to me.

[singingprincess]

Yes! To all of your thoughts Oberon!

The thing that made the most enormous difference to me was a specific type of therapy, that allowed me to almost reboot myself psychologically.

I had no idea of just how profound the change would actually be...and I surprise myself on an almost daily basis with just how much I have changed on a stunningly deep level.

This, bizarrely, is why I am not one of those who would totally write off the "abuser". If change on that kind of level is possible...then...........who knows?

I got this on the NHS after asking for help with any possible "co dependence".

[catherinea1971]

Did anyone watch Married Single Dead on the Crime channel last night?
It was a very good overview of how abuse can end in total tragedy, but the most frightening aspect for me was that the families and friends of these women who were brutally murdered at the hands of their abusive husband knew about some aspects of the abuse, they saw the very major red flags but had not a clue how bad they were, they had not been educated to see what was right in front of them.
Without doubt there needs to be more help for the victims of abuse both male and female BUT without vigorous education across all of our society to understand what abuse is in all it's forms and how it manifests itself a dent will never be made in the amount of victims of abuse we have in this country and I fear that the figures will only increase.