how can I reign him in?

[KlickKlackknobsac]

My dh is a nightmare.
If he has money it just slips through his fingers.
I have worked full time for last 9 years despite having 3dc. I pay mortgage, utility bills, food bills, SKY bill, dental costs, all clothes for kids etc etc.
If DH has money he buys a house or invests it- would rather do that than put money ion the bank. He is not money focused really- I think the houses are a game of Monopoly to him.

I also pay for holidays. My savings have now disappeared and I am starting to get worried.
18 months ago he took out a £25K loan in my name without my knowledge (I had to sign at last minute of course) fom joint account. Last month he took £570 from my account without asking or telling me. Today we discussed some building work and agreed we should leave it as we can't afford it at the mo- at 3.30pm the concrete lorry turns up!!!
What can I do to sort him out??

The curious thing is that the ~25 properties are let. If the rental incomes aren't covering the finance interest, the property business isn't working. If the homes could not be sold quickly (say, at auction) for the sum of the outstanding debts, the business is worthless.

If the above were not the case, OP wouldn't be having to earn a salary to pay for all the family's needs, surely? And Dreamy wouldn't be having to con money out of her?

It's fair to assume the carpet business, antiques shop and whatever are likewise bust. If they're not, again they'd be able to contribute to home, hearth and holidays.

To be honest, I can see why KK would prefer not to face it head-on. But, KK, I'm afraid you've got to face it and give up being angry with people who try to help you take off the blinkers.

If things aren't as bad as I've written here, what are your reasons for shouldering the family's costs single-handed AND underwriting your husband's vague investments? It shouldn't be necessary, surely? You'd be able to cut your losses on the property portfolio and still keep a few that make sense on paper.

To answer your original question - how do you control the uncontrollable - well, you point out to the uncontrollable that he either chooses to become 'controllable (also known as having simple respect for your partner), or he heads off into a lonely old age. His choice. That isn't controlling him... it's controlling YOURSELF, and YOUR future.

Good luck

bubblegum I am not sidestepping. Really what do you expect me to achieve in 24hrs??
OK- update
we have 16 owned by us, 5 owned with partners,
All interest only - with repayment mortgages very little capital (rather than interest) is paid off in first 10 years, and as we intend to sell the houses within that time, it makes no sense to have that type of mortgage. We had 2 houses with NO mortgage that were remortgaged to pay for (deposits) on above properties- they are also on interest only now but also for a short period.
We have 3 barns with planning permission to convert ( 1 sold) and planning for a 4 bed house, we also have embryonic plans for a small housing development on our land and outline planning permission for the roadway already.
I have been questioning dh all day on and off. Have seen all info re houses and incomings and outgoings. We have a tenant who is not paying rent which is costing us a lot. But dh agrees he needs to be a lot more considerate.
Dh has agreed to pay off loan asap and recoup my savings. I also made point about investor/partner getting his cash back and not me- next land sale (that has already been agreed) will now come to me.
Maybe not as bad as I thought.
I will persevere with this and I AM listening- even when you are nasty and I protest.
Thanks to all.

Judging from your last post OP you still don't understand how this works.

All interest only - with repayment mortgages very little capital (rather than interest) is paid off in first 10 years, and as we intend to sell the houses within that time, it makes no sense to have that type of mortgage

Your mortgage is either interest only - in which case you don't repay any capital - you just pay the interest on the capital borrowed or your mortgage is repayment, in which case you repay part of the capital borrowed as well as the interest on the capital borrowed.

What you have described i.e. a mortgage that does repay 'very little capital' in the early years is a repayment mortgage and therefore not an interest only mortgage.

That's good news as at least you will some equity in the properties but it's bad news as the value of the properties will have reduced from the peak price period in which you bought some, so your small amount of equity will be negated by the actual drop in the market value. But - if you hold these longterm you will eventually repay the full amount of capital borrowed. However you need to be able to ride out the inevitable rise in interest rates in the future. So basically you're hoping that when you come to sell, as planned, in about 10 years time that house prices will have recovered to at least permit you to recover the equity you will by then have invested in them.

It's gambling really.

The problem is your timing. Some BTL landlords went down the interest only mortgage route, using each succesive purchase to finance the next purchase. The rents paid the interest only mortgage payments but the real attraction was that house prices were increasing strongly. So essentially, you had a tenant paying your mortgage for you and you could bail out in a few years by selling an asset that had increased its market value substanially.

Unless you can ride out the house price reduction and interest rate increase period you're shafted - but if you can you're minted.

I think your current problem is that you are asset rich but cash poor and that some courageous decsions have to be taken to release some equity now as well as recognising the point at which you may again be over-committed if DH just cannot resist the next attractive deal.

My apologies I've just reread the last post and realised that you were explaining repaymnet mortgages i.e. makes no sense to have one and that you do have interest only mortgages. I misinterpreted the sentence.

Ok - with interest only then if interest rates go up you may have to either increase the rents to cover the increased mortgage payments or, if that is not sustainable, you'll have to cover the difference between the tenant's rent and your repaymnets yourself. so you'll be subsidising someone's rent with no benefit to you - unless you are gambling that the market value of the house will increase in the future to outweigh that penalty but you'll be starting from a negative position as the house value of a houise purchased in 2007 will almost ceratinly be less than the market value today.

Personally, I'd aim to get out of these interest only mortgages as soon as possible but rates do actually rise and you're just another in the queues of BLT landlords and repossessed owner-occupiers trying to sell at the same time.

Good to hear you're pursuing your facts and your money, KK. You've said you will persist - so DO it!!!

No more backing down on a winning smile, eh?

No. What op has said is they are all interest only mortgages - then gone to explain repayment mortgages and why they aren't suitable.

It's the way it's written.

So no capital is being paid off ......

I am glad you are making progress with getting the information.

I hope you now have an answer as to why your DH has no spare money, raids your account and doesn't contribute to the family income. I think you have to get him to understand that there can be no further spending until
a) The loan is repaid
b) The issue with the non-paying tenant is sorted
c) Your savings are restored
d) The income from your rental properties covers all the mortages and allows your DH to contribute to the family income.

In relation to the interest only mortgages, as I mentioned above, be careful about properties bought in the couple of years up to 2007 as in some parts of the country the prices have dropped noticeably from that point and if you only put down a 10-15% deposit things could be getting tight.

Your comment about repayment mortgages isn't really correct although it does depend on the term.

A GBP200 000 loan at 4% over 20 years will reduce to cGBP120K over 10 years which is a 40% reduction.

25 Year Term
It will reduce to cGBP143K in 10 years a reduction of 28%

I don't think either scenario could be described as very little capital and I was concerned that you have been told that but haven't checked the actual calculations (apologies if you are like me and have excel spreadsheets full of this sort of thing).

You can play with the figures yourself here

I feel it is very important for your peace of mind that you don't take everything you are told at face value but check it out to work out what you are comfortable with. I think your DH has got so used to you just going along with what he says that you need to make sure you are well informed so you can check that things are moving in a direction you are happy with so you know if your DH's approach is appropriate and realistic.

X posts.

mortgages not mortages

dh has now given back £400 of £570.

omg chaszbrilliantattitude such details!!
I will check out your spreadsheets...

Please remember that we are not in the south, so nearly all houses are much cheaper than any of figures you give. We bought mostly at bottom dollar, and all houses still have equity- have checked this out on all dh records.

News this morning re positivity means market may not get much worse. We have seen a lot more interest in houses on market in last 2 weeks.

Feeling much more positive.

Need to resolve non-paying tenant. V problematic as sent original AST to a mortgage company and they have lost it, and tenant is avoiding signing a new tenancy- so V hard to issue a section 8. He is an absolute crook. But that's a whole different issue for legal I guess.

Will keep referring to your 4 point plan chazs

Wetaugust some of the interest only mortgages are fixed- so not affected by rising interest rates immediately.
But I take note of advice about transferring to repayment.
dh has agreed to put more houses on market and reduce- he has much more understanding of my awkwardness of living a 'furcoat and no knickers' lifestyle- or as we call it- 'a ten bob millionaire'. I would prefer to live well within my means with none of the risks- and we have discussed this issue at length.

This is the relationship issue- dh is the kind who really does not worry (I am a huge worrier) and he just enjoys the house/ garden etc (we are not extravagant in any other way- we drive old cars, wear old clothes, not at all showy- house is more like the darling buds of may) but i can't when there are money worries. This big difference in our personalities needs sorting- and I have made it very clear to him that things need to change.

Step by step ... you're getting somewhere. You really need to keep this up, though

As somebody said earlier, it's easy to be laid back and live-in-the-moment when somebody else is paying the bills! On the sketch you've given here, DH is running businesses that are essentially bust, which is somewhat ridiculous when you look at the size of the holdings and your extravagant future plans. It's not a hobby, it's a business and there's no excuse at all for DH failing to support his family.

Supposing that his devil-may-care approach is never going to go away (and you wouldn't want it to), you're going to have to be the business manager and keep pushing the facts & figures home until he gets it. I'm extremely concerned by your ignorance around finance as this means that, basically, nobody's taking care of business You really BOTH need to put yourselves on some crash courses.

Spreadsheets are your friend! It's slightly mad, too, to be in such a precarious position that one defaulting tenant can rock the whole edifice. Please aim to have 'buggeration' built into your systems, so everything else can carry a few failures while you sort things out.

You've got your work cut out. But, actually, I think you'll both enjoy your life toether more when you can see where it's at and what's available. And you're going to have to drive this, because he won't. Welcome to your third job ...

Playtime is OVER! Geddit?

Thanks garlic
I think your summary its a hobby not a business is correct.
When a couple of properties have sold (completed) and we are away from the precipice, then I will certainly feel better.

I will get those spreadsheets started- will be doing this on very part-time basis as current job already very demanding.

Dh said something about some houses we owned in past and one in particular that we sold, then the new owner doubled their money in a year (rising market). Dh has always regretted this, and it's making him loathe to sell anything with little profit ( but I have convinced him he has no choice). He wants to keep holding on for an upturn (which I have told him is not guaranteed and so we need to secure family finances now).

This lack of knowledge on my part has just evolved- I have always worked and just not had headspace for what he does as well. But that will have to change- I see that he will never become the fastidious business man.

There IS no rising market. Experts says it is unlikely that the housing market will recover in the next 10 years.
I put a £50k deposit on my house and ALL my 'equity' has now been wiped out. it doesn't bother me as I just want a house to live in.
Selling now- you will be selling at the absolute bottom of the market and would be incredibly lucky to get the price of the mortgage on the houses.

And aren't you a teeny tiny bit suspicious about a property business that has made no profit for NINE YEARS????

he has a habit of saying-just sign that- I say whats it for and explains, and explains how many people depend on this purchase and how many will be let down if I don't sign and then its eally impossible to say no. Plus all the - 'we will make £50K in 6 months darling' I honestly challenge anyone to say no to him

You are describing the actions of a con artist. You have seen no profit from all your 'investments'. You have been conned .

Here you go, OP, I knew I'd seen a good, straightforward page about UK house prices recently. There's a simple chart of average UK house price since 2001, some pragmatic commentary and reliable links to more in-depth info.

On the averages, basically, anything you bought since 2004 isn't likely to be worth much more now (leaving inflation & interest out of it) except for houses bought in the 2008 post-crash dip. Would that be when DH missed out on a profit to someone else? It was an 8-month irregularity; the next house the other person bought will not have added value the same way.

Have a read of the article. And find out where your money is :)

If you want even more depth on house price movements
www1.landregistry.gov.uk/upload/documents/HPI_Report_Aug_11_ta6ds1.pdf

will read thread properly later, but just want to say that people can be income poor, capital rich and financially abused.

Mardy clearly I am suspicious- hence this thread!!
Trust me- all the properties have good equity in them- no properties have been bought unless they were very, very cheap. The ones we are selling now included- you simply cannot make such assertions without the facts- many of which I know have- and why such negativity and doom mongering. You can no more be sure of a 10 year 'lack of recovery' than anyone else can be sure of a rising market at some point in the future.

Many thanks again garlic and chazs

When you say that the houses on interest-only mortgages are in your name- do you mean that the mortgage is solely in your name, or that ownership of the house is in your name? Because if you are the owner of the houses, then surely it's up to you when you sell them? Or do you just own the debt?

"When he has money he...invests it". In what? Shares? In his name, or joint names?

And to answer your question about whether this is a typical arrangement in many marriages- I shouldn't imagine so. Certainly not in our marriage. In our marriage, financial decisions are taken together; earnings are pooled; all our debts and assets belong to both of us. From what you've said, it seems that you work full time to provide everything for your family and husband, he spends his money on acquiring property , and you are responsible for debts? I couldn't be in a marriage where we didn't have complete transparency about finances. Trust results from the way partners behave in a relationship; it's not a right that can be demanded, especially from a spouse who's done "reprehensible things".

If the property portfolio is a hobby, what's his job? Why have you never insisted that he contribute to the household?

At the very least you need to ring fence family money and your accounts so that the property business is entirely separate from your family money. Should he not be paying himself a salary? What happens if you lose your job?

And how the hell is he managing to get all these mortgages when the banks are running notoriously tight ships nowadays, and he appears to have no kind of financial or business management structures in place whatsoever? He might be able to charm thousands out of you, but I guarantee he wouldn't be able to charm it out of me, nor out of my bank manager. I'd be astounded if there isn't more to this than he's letting on.

Glad to see you are getting a grip of what's what. How convenient for your DH that you are too busy at work to develop an in-depth understanding of what's going on.

And how the hell is he managing to get all these mortgages when the banks are running notoriously tight ships nowadays, and he appears to have no kind of financial or business management structures in place whatsoever?

inertia thanks for your comments- I am getting on top of things. Clearly he does have such structures in place or he would not be able to get the mortgages- he bought most when the market was at its lowest (late 2008) and well below asking prices and he had deposits (see pp). As you rightly say it is very hard to buy property at the moment.

I have been talking a lot to dh since this thread started- it is vey interesting to hear everyone's views, but a little frustrating when people just make a summary statement based on incomplete facts- I am in the process of getting all the facts in order to reign him in.

I do not fully understand how bad or good this is so no one else can do either.

damnit rein

You are right, we have no idea what's going on. But the point is that you have the right to know exactly what's going on , and it's totally unreasonable that your DH hides this from you - it's not charming or dizzy or careless ; it's morally dishonest , and possibly fraudulent.

May I make a suggestion? There seems to be considerable MN collective experience here. Maybe those with experience can point you in the direction of exactly what paperwork you need to see, and what questions you need to ask ?

I'd also be making appointments with all the relevant banks to go through all the accounts and mortgages, and insisting that DH attends.

OP - if your DH has been playing the property market for 16 years and has not brought home any money from it (and is in fact borrowing tens of thousands more from his own wife) then I think it's safe for posters on here to make the assumption that he is not doing very well.

Having equity means something, but how does the equity compare to the equity he originally bought? Is it the case that he's lost money on the properties, just not all the money? I find it really difficult to stomach that any property investor in these financial climes would only be paying interest and not increasing equity via repayment mortgages.

It is remarkably easy as a poster with only a few facts to have a very clear image of your husband, whether you like it or not.