How many of the men in your life have used prostitutes, compared with how many who haven't? I'd like to ask for help or perspectives on this?

[aliasforthis2]

I'm a semi-regular poster but obviously have name-changed for this.

I feel sad and like I've seen things I cannot un-see.

So if you can be reasonably sure that your husband or partner or ex or other male in your life has NOT used prostitutes post please post here.

Likewise if any males in your life HAVE used prostitutes please post here too.

And also if they gave reasons for either doing it or not doing it or given their views on the sex industry please post them.

Hopefully it will give me a more balanced perspective than my current "all men are johns who did these things" and help my recovery.

I worked as a prostitute for 4 years and stopped/exited nearly 18 months ago. The reason I started working as a prostitute was because it was sold to me as a glamourous and easy way to make money. At the time I had many debts and was working minimum wage and living totally hand-to-mouth with no room for manouvere,if an unexpected financial burden hit like a bank charge, we would be screwed having to choose between food and electric. A friend worked for an agency and I'd seen Belle du Jour and naively thought it would be like that.

Anyway, I am now out as I just couldn't handle it anymore. A very small percentage of the men were ok but the vast majority did things like -
-try to take the condoms off
-have poor hygiene and refuse to shower first worried it would take up their 'time'
-try to get service for less money or even steal back the money
-try to force services i did not offer like anal
-be unashamed about the fact they were partnered or had a wife at home
-speak to me disrespectfully and patronising, saying things like "I want to get the most for my money" etc
-scrutinize my body and give me advice on how to look better or compare me either positively or negatively to other ladies
-try to take up mush more time than paid for deliberately
-sometimes maybe once a month i was assaulted leaving bruises or spat on or held in a house
-a lot of phone or text harrassment
-most wanted young women the younger the better ie 18-20. i'm serious when i say that this is what most men wanted - young and naive. I answered the phone for the agency sometimes and i'd say three quarters of the men specifically requested 'young' ie 18-21 , 25 at a push.Which I think is disgusting given most are in their 40s wanting as close to 18 as they can.

Obviously not every man did ALL of the above but I'd be hard pressed to find a man who did not try at least one of those things. I don't know any other way to describe it.

I have been single for a while, I had a relationship with a genuinely lovely man I met at my new work for a while (no red flags) but it ended as he became a complete workaholic when starting a company and we drifted apart and split 6 months ago.

Anyway the point of this thread is for me to get a more balanced perspective on men. I had counselling on the NHS for 12 weeks which was helping but they wouldn't fund any more. I have been told by sympathetic friends who are also ex prostitutes (not told anyone in 'real life') to remind myself that it's only a v.small percentage of men who use prostitutes/escorts. But I just cannot see it like that. Every man I see walking down the street I view as a potential customer of prostitutes and treated a person how the customers treated me. I feel like punching them sometimes for no reason. Every married man I know I wonder if they have went to a prostitute with their wedding ring happily on moaning about their wife. I find myself wondering if I will ever have a relationship with trust again. I don't live in a particularly big place or a travelling business place but the sheer hoardes of men calling the agency every day and booking was unbelievable. And more than half would have unsuspecting wives or gfs.

I feel sad and like I've seen things I cannot un-see.

So if you can be reasonably sure that your husband or partner or ex or other male in your life has NOT used prostitutes post please post here.

Likewise if any males in your life HAVE used prostitutes please post here too.

And also if they gave reasons for either doing it or not doing it or given their views on the sex industry please post them.

Hopefully it will give me a more balanced perspective than my current "all men are johns who did these things" and help my recovery.

Thanks x

alias - what do you think an ordinary person could do to help stop this trade or help someone out of it?

I'm seeing a stronger and stronger link to porn. I'm reading a Bancroft book at the moment where porn is discussed and it mirrors exactly the scenarios you describe. Men are living out their porn fantasy.

I'd personally like to see porn regulated differently. Erotica is one thing but depicting violence, humilation etc as 'normal' is as bad as the myth that all women are a size 10 and worthless if not.

I dislike porn myself because it's so degrading to women. I like erotica but porn seems focused on hurting and humiliation and it's always women suffering.

Sex is about a physical act of affection, love and pleasure. Porn seems very far removed from that and men living out that fantasy are one step away from assuming their behaviour is acceptable with all women -(that's not to say it's acceptable with prostitutes)

What consenting adults do ...is by consent.
What prostitutes and clients do is business

We have laws to protect workers from exploitation, protect their health and safety, protect their dignity. Why are prostitutes excluded from this? It's either by consent or as work. Either way, you should have protection.

ToothbrushThief That's a good question. I don't think the trade itself will ever be stopped as it's huge and even if it was made completely illegal, like in America, it only serves as a deterrent it cannot be shut down. To help someone out of it? Well I've been thinking about this a lot since I exited. I did have support from a local sex work project in the form of counselling and budgeting but they were very very busy with more complex cases than mine like cases of trafficking and mostly cases where drug addiction is a factor (it was not in mine). So I guess I wasn't a priority case,but I am very grateful for the help I received. Are you taking about a family member or friend IRL? I'd say for anyone involved they have to come to their own gradual or sometimes sudden "I can't do this anymore" point. I got to the point where I could feel it damaging me more every day I worked. That sounds weird but the harm was palpable. Help could be in the form of -

• Immediate referral for counselling and for health care.
• Immediate help with money management and housing- for example the woman would get a fast-tracked benefits claim so they would have enough money to live off and their rent paid etc. Help with budgeting as many of the women are used to quick (but not easy) money so spend as they earn, which will not be helpful in a monthly pay situation. *Then when stabilised, help in finding a job or course would be crucial as many of the women will have huge gaps in their CV. Volunteer work can help too.
• Engagement in hobbies and other pursuits to give life some colour.

I'm not too sure of the procedures used in treating drug addictions, which would be the major issue needing treated before I'd imagine progress could be made with stopping prostitution.

I agree with everything which you said about porn there. Hopefully I'll be ok as men I will be dating anytime in the future will be in their 30s or early 40s now so hopefully will not be so "pornified" as those growing up/young and impressionable today. The man I dated last year was 33, so the internet was not popular until he was 20 or so and already had girlfriends by then. Gladly he hardly watched porn as far as I know, and I knew him pretty well. I'm actually scared to think of what my daughter will have to endure when she starts dating though - judging by the porn-obsessed violent acts the younger males who hired me in prostitution tried to do to me. They would actually like it if I was obviously in pain sometimes, and I'm sure they got their ideas from porn since they all used the same language towards me that the films use. Men of 35+ acting like this were not as common. Probably 35-50 was the 'best' age group of the men I saw. younger men and older men usually spelled trouble for different reasons, although I am grossly generalizing here.

And I totally agree with your point that it's always the women suffering in porn. x

Me again.

Some interesting points raised. I'm very glad I got out of prostitution before the use of the internet in the home really took off in the late 90s - a couple of years after I stopped working. Although I had some bad experiences in the months I was working, it was psychological harm that was done to me, not physical.

Apologies for not being able to articulate myself the way I would like, but I feel that what was once considered extreme hardcore pornography, is only a few clicks away on anyone's computer and is now considered 'mainstream'.

Back then (only 15 years ago) there were obviously women who offered anal, etc., but it was definitely a tiny minority and not the norm. The most exotic things some agencies would provide were watersports and domination. Both of which were for the punter to receive, not give, and that was again only a smallish minority of women who would provide that service.

Although I still bitterly regret my time as a prostitute back then, I feel the internet and the increasing ease of availability of the most shocking, degrading and downright dangerous pornography is (partly?) responsible for the terrible attitudes and behaviour towards sex workers we're hearing about on this thread. Not to mention those dreadful sites that offer punters the opportunity to share their experiences with sex workers...

I agree with everything you have said. x

The dreadful sites not only offer punters the opportunity to share their experiences, they create a "boy's club" scenario whereby women's bodies are scrutinized and other men are encouraged to "drive down prices" and laugh at some ladies desperation.

Alias, I really feel for you. I am a sex worker but I went into this before all the Belle De Jour crap that was plastered everywhere. She has put a rather glamorous slant on a job that requires extremely thick skin and a complete emotional security and made it look easy for everyone.
Not all men see women in the way you think. My partner for one has never booked an escort even when I tried to book one as a surprise he refused. The same as not all clients are monsters. I have a very rigid screening policy and security so I do tend to get the nice guys who want more than just a few holes. I have become firm friends with quite a few clients. There will always be some monsters around and I am so sorry that you met them.
You entered a line of work which you thought would be easy and is far from it.
Unless you have a lot of life experience and are completely secure in yourself this line of work can destroy you.

I often get 18 - 20 year old girls email me and say "I want to be an escort can you help". I always tell them to go and work anywhere else until they are at least 28. I am 42. I was a midwife until I had a severely disabled son and could no longer work the hours but needed a lot of money to pay for all the extra care he needed and this line of work was the only one that had flexible hours and a great rate of pay.

I am also afraid to say that everyone who says my partner, brothers or father would never see an escort would be very surprised. I see roughly 30 men a week who are all married. If I do so does every other other girl and a quick look on Adultwork will show how many girls there are so these married men must be coming from somewhere. Again though it is not always about sex. They may just require a service they would never ask their partner for for one reason or another.
I know this is a bit of a ramble but what I am trying to say is not all men just see women as somehwere to park their man bits.
They may just want affection, they may want an act they know their partner wont do or they may just be curious. It does not make them bad. Unfaithful yes, bad no. They are after all human.

I do think you need to go to a local outreach project that will help you and also arrange for the type of councelling you need. These projects are set up to help people like you and their councellors are trained to deal with ex prostitutes. This type of help is going to be far better than a general councellor who has no idea about what you have been through so wont be able to offer the support you need. If you dont know of an outreach project near you please pm me and I will find the closest one for you.
This is not something you will be able to help yourself with, I have seen the affect this job can have on some people so I do know how you are feeling (I do feel it sometimes myself even though I am toughened to it).

A lot fo women here can give advice but unless you have been there it is not the most helpful advice. They really cannot hope to understand how you feel.
The shame, the guilt, the dirtyness that does not wash off, the hatred towards all men and the fact that you see everyone now as someone capable of abuse. You need specialised help and I really hope you find it.

I dont know you but will try and find you the right help if you want me to.
For now though just take time for yourself. Perhaps a small break where you can be alone and unwind a little until the help you need is in place.

Great post, Antsy! She sounds incredibly naiive, though I have no experience of the industry myself. Why make all woman frightened their man is a potential punter?! I don't think I'm being naiive when I say I don't think all men are. Don't insult them! And don't insult us, either.

Siobhan may have made spelling mistakes and grammatical errors but I've never known it to be a hanging offence.

I read this thread way back in October when it originally started and have to admit to sympathise with 'alias'.

However on saying that - after working in the industry for 10 years myself, I have not met one person who has had any one of the things happen to them that 'alias' has.

I'm not saying that it doesnt happen, I have read stories re things that have happened to some females but not very many. The worst thing that has happened to people I know it that they have perhaps had a pair of panties knicked or toiletries from the bathroom, usually as a souvenir - yes men are fickle !!

I too work as an independent worker and I am totally in control of everything I say and do. I am also not alcohol or drug dependent. To imply I'm a victim or I'll be scarred for life is pathetic. I choose who I want to see and not the other way round. If I don't want to see someone I won't. End of.

What is the description of a client? No matter what you said you would be correct for there is no one description of a potential client. Tall - small; Thin - fat; young(from 18) - old (up to 80ish); Intelligent - lacking in education; directors of companies/business men - manual workers; married - single.

We see them all, then pack them off out the door with a smile on their face, ready to face the world again. Some will return because they are happy with the service - some we will never see again, perhaps because they will never be in the area again. If they don't return there is always another along soon to take their place. There is never a shortage of work for us or a shortage of men looking for our services.

I can say, hand on heart, I've never known anyone that has been so traumatised that they have had to leave the business. Many have left for their own personal reasons and I'm happy for them too. I won't be working forever so my time will come too to say goodbye to all the lovely guys I see. Don't get me wrong, they have not all been lovely - there have been the ones I've had to tell to have a shower when they arrive for a booking, if they don't want to, then they are asked to leave the premises.

I must admit, after many years on Mumsnet, that many of the ladies that post on threads like this are rather naive/blinkered to the type of guy that visits a prostitute/escort; as there is no 'typical' type of guy who visits us - even I can be surprised.

What a surprise that this thread has, yet again, attracted sex workers who can't wait to tell women how great their (sw's) job is, how your husband/partner is visiting them (but you just don't know it cos you're naive, you see), and by the way the job is great, they have complete control and no-one they know is traumatised by it.

Of course spelling mistakes and grammatical errors are not a hanging offence, but I'm surprised to see someone who claims to be degree educated making quite so many - rather basic - mistakes.

Siobhan.

I believe what you are saying that you enjoy your job, have never been attacked etc etc. I am sure some prostitutes, particularly those who work independently see their job as quite enpowering. Perhaps it's good to know that men seek you out and find you desirable. That you can work a few hrs a wk earning what most of us earn for 40 hrs, or whatever.

However, i really resent your snidey comment that our dp's?dh's are seeing you and we havent a clue. Very spiteful. I take it that you haven't got a special person in your life or maybe you do not believe in monogamy. Otherwise, you wouldn't wish that kind of betrayal on anyone.

I do think that many women are very naive in what their lovely dh's get up to or do not belive it could happen to them. I am sure that that there are plenty of mumsnetters that are being shit on right now. However, to rub it in sounds very childish and is it really anything to brag about?

Yes, i guess the majority of these men are married, seemingly respectable and polite and are chuffed to bits they are shagging a woman half their age. They probably are lovely to you. Are they really that nice a person if they can seek out a woman on the internet and secretly pay her for sex without their wife's knowledge? Hmm.

The thing is many men may have a valid reason for seeing prostitutes, but if they are married or promised fidelity to another person then do you not see that it is the betrayal that is what is wrong here.

FWIW my dp does not work away on business, have much opportunity away from our family so it's doubtful that he is hooking up with you,but i am not so naive to think that it is impossible. So don't think all of us girlfriends or wives are totally thick.

Oh and personally I would not prefer my dp to pay for sex than have a complicated affair. I would prefer him to do neither!!

If a man isn't happy with being monogamous then he shouldn't enter into a monogamous relationship. If he finds himself in a unhappy marriage then he owes it to his wife to tell her, not see an escort.

I really, really hate it when men or prostitutes justify themselevs by making out that they are somehow saving a marriage. What a lot of bollocks and deluded. Are we meant to be grateful that our old man stays with us and shags hookers?

Jesus, do any women feel like that these days?

I've reported your post Siobhan as those links you have posted are totally inappropriate. Hopefully they will be deleted asap.

If you do genuinely have dyslexia then I apologise for and withdraw my comments about spelling etc.

On the assumption that you are genuine, I will say the following. I don't have a DP or a DH and therefore have no axe to grind but I agree with Carmen that your insinuations are spiteful and unnecessary. Perhaps you could explain why you seem to find it amusing/entertaining (or whatever) that men are deceiving their wives and partners and causing genuine hurt and distress?

Absolutely,flippinada.

Why would anyone want to boast about the fact that the men that see her are betraying their wives?

I personally do not have an issue with prostitution and do not have an issue with men paying for sex.

I do have an issue with lying, cheating and betrayal though.

If a single man pays for sex that's their business. If a married man does it behind his wife's back knowing it would hurt her, that isn't something to joke about really is it?

huh? Why was my message deleted??

What a surprise that this thread has, yet again, attracted sex workers who can't wait to tell women how great their (sw's) job is

What's wrong with that?

Surely any topic is all the richer for having more than one side to the story so to speak?

Yes, worraliberty and siobhan was doing okay until she cracked a joke about our husbands seeing her on a business trip!

Hardly doing the sex industry a big favour making daft comments like that.

Oh I agree with that carmen that was just stupid and wanky

It's the bit about telling people how great they think their job is

It's certainly not my kind of job but that doesn't mean people shouldn't post about it if it's theirs and they enjoy it.

Yes, I agree worraliberty.

I guess many prostitutes do enjoy their job, or perhaps aspects of it.

I don't think that all prostitutes are drug addled or abused. I think these days women may see it as a 'glamorous' life, particularly with all the professional photo's that they have done and set up a website, almost like a model. I guess many clients are quite ordinary middle aged men who treat em rather nice.

Personally I would find it rather yucky if a bloke 20 years older than me wanted to shag me and kid himself he was still young and could pull( they seem to forget they are having to pay for it), but I guess if you can see beyond that...

Carmen - I think it was deleted because you referred to one of the sites siobhan linked to.

Worra - I take your point but, something about the happy-hooker style post just doesn't ring true to me.

Absolutely!

My post was to Carmen

I'm sure there are some very happy hookers around

Just as there are doubtless other happy people in jobs that you and I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

Everyone's different I suppose and that's what makes MN so interesting

I just don't like people being told they shouldn't post an experience or opinion because we're all free to do that here IYSWIM.