How many of the men in your life have used prostitutes, compared with how many who haven't? I'd like to ask for help or perspectives on this?

[aliasforthis2]

I'm a semi-regular poster but obviously have name-changed for this.

I feel sad and like I've seen things I cannot un-see.

So if you can be reasonably sure that your husband or partner or ex or other male in your life has NOT used prostitutes post please post here.

Likewise if any males in your life HAVE used prostitutes please post here too.

And also if they gave reasons for either doing it or not doing it or given their views on the sex industry please post them.

Hopefully it will give me a more balanced perspective than my current "all men are johns who did these things" and help my recovery.

I worked as a prostitute for 4 years and stopped/exited nearly 18 months ago. The reason I started working as a prostitute was because it was sold to me as a glamourous and easy way to make money. At the time I had many debts and was working minimum wage and living totally hand-to-mouth with no room for manouvere,if an unexpected financial burden hit like a bank charge, we would be screwed having to choose between food and electric. A friend worked for an agency and I'd seen Belle du Jour and naively thought it would be like that.

Anyway, I am now out as I just couldn't handle it anymore. A very small percentage of the men were ok but the vast majority did things like -
-try to take the condoms off
-have poor hygiene and refuse to shower first worried it would take up their 'time'
-try to get service for less money or even steal back the money
-try to force services i did not offer like anal
-be unashamed about the fact they were partnered or had a wife at home
-speak to me disrespectfully and patronising, saying things like "I want to get the most for my money" etc
-scrutinize my body and give me advice on how to look better or compare me either positively or negatively to other ladies
-try to take up mush more time than paid for deliberately
-sometimes maybe once a month i was assaulted leaving bruises or spat on or held in a house
-a lot of phone or text harrassment
-most wanted young women the younger the better ie 18-20. i'm serious when i say that this is what most men wanted - young and naive. I answered the phone for the agency sometimes and i'd say three quarters of the men specifically requested 'young' ie 18-21 , 25 at a push.Which I think is disgusting given most are in their 40s wanting as close to 18 as they can.

Obviously not every man did ALL of the above but I'd be hard pressed to find a man who did not try at least one of those things. I don't know any other way to describe it.

I have been single for a while, I had a relationship with a genuinely lovely man I met at my new work for a while (no red flags) but it ended as he became a complete workaholic when starting a company and we drifted apart and split 6 months ago.

Anyway the point of this thread is for me to get a more balanced perspective on men. I had counselling on the NHS for 12 weeks which was helping but they wouldn't fund any more. I have been told by sympathetic friends who are also ex prostitutes (not told anyone in 'real life') to remind myself that it's only a v.small percentage of men who use prostitutes/escorts. But I just cannot see it like that. Every man I see walking down the street I view as a potential customer of prostitutes and treated a person how the customers treated me. I feel like punching them sometimes for no reason. Every married man I know I wonder if they have went to a prostitute with their wedding ring happily on moaning about their wife. I find myself wondering if I will ever have a relationship with trust again. I don't live in a particularly big place or a travelling business place but the sheer hoardes of men calling the agency every day and booking was unbelievable. And more than half would have unsuspecting wives or gfs.

I feel sad and like I've seen things I cannot un-see.

So if you can be reasonably sure that your husband or partner or ex or other male in your life has NOT used prostitutes post please post here.

Likewise if any males in your life HAVE used prostitutes please post here too.

And also if they gave reasons for either doing it or not doing it or given their views on the sex industry please post them.

Hopefully it will give me a more balanced perspective than my current "all men are johns who did these things" and help my recovery.

Thanks x

try to do and succeed in doing the things I'd told him explicitly I did not offer ie anal or fisting the girl etc.

horrendous..I still wonder about those you reported trough the 3d party - interested to know whether police did anything or just shruged it off?!
You must have felt like a zombie mostof the time, I mean after making a bit of money and coming across some horrors, you should ve left, but you must have been in some sort of shock so continued on autopilot? cause rationally it was just too scary to stay there. Sounds like it was a relatively remote place - you should have gone to a big city, more normal work opportunities, and i think in remore places men feel like no one will get them (and think the women wouldn't fight unlike somewhere like london.

Yeah I did feel like a zombie on autopilot most of the time. Even if no violence occurs having sex repeatedly with people you have not known for even 5 mins gets to you. I was sort of in shock, I honestly can't really work out why I stayed for longer than the few months it would have taken me to clear my debts. It was quite a big town actually, but not one of the biggest.

Hi alias I can imagine it was shell shock. I'm glad you managed to find a way out, I hope that ohmetoo does too.

Alias,

Your story, as sad as it is, is quite thought provoking.

How did the other girls that you have worked with feel? Did they hate what they were doing too, or did they just switch off and focus on the money?

Do you think that these men that pay for sex really and truly think that the women that they pay for sex really really enjoy it. I've read these laughable stories where the man talks about how many orgasms the girl has(oh really?)or the fantastic connection they have made.

I guess there are very tiny minority of women who truly love sex with strangers and actually see it as their sex life, not work. That figure must be very small surely. Are men really so bloody thick that that actually believe that most 20 yr old women would want to shag some random middle aged man

It's good to see you back on your thread, Alias, even though I feel quite traumatised by some of your posts! You write with such clarity of thought, I hope you will one day feel confident to write your memoirs.

I just wanted to put a bit more about the moral/shame aspect of prostitution. I've been likeing missing's posts and am unsuprised by the story about the Japanese 'hostess'. The reason I don't support legislation against all prostitution is that there is no logical place to draw the line. My ex-friend, the mercenary beauty, emphatically does exchange her services for money. But it's not a cut-and-dried transaction; she's a wife, girlfriend, friend who requires frequent cash injections. I have slept with people for my dinner - not specifically but, back then, I wouldn't have done it without the dinner - so I was trading. I've known more than one woman shag a taxi driver for her fare.

None of this is ideal ... but it's human. It's not illegal, nor should it be. The current law about 'living off immoral earnings' (brothel-keeping and pimping) was probably intended to make a distiction between organised sex trades and informal ones - but it's backfired on the workers, who are safer on shared premises with others around.

It's complicated. I decided to write this after reading several posts on the lines of "prostitution is wrong" ... it's not, really, it's natural. The way sex trades are segregated - conducted in the sahdows - makes them wrong, shameful and dangerous.

Carmen, I see it the other way around

I simply think they don't give a shit, as long as they get their "money's worth"

Oh, I should say: have done the 'trade' in reverse, too. I've paid more than my fair share for impoverished boyfriends, whose interest in me was at least 50% for my credit limit!

Anyfucker, you are most probably right. How utterly gross, 'getting your money's worth'. Yuck

Carmen

I think most girls (like me) go into the sex industry thinking naively that the vast majority of guys will be nice, 'normal' guys and that the clients will have your best interests at heart, that it will just be a a "swap" , you will be equal with the punters.

But when you realise that actually most (although not all, but definitely the majority) punters actually do NOT have your best interests at heart, and even if you are lucky and they are relatively polite and not rough, they still only see you as a body and a set of holes for their pleasure. They could not care less if you are ill, if you feel sad that day - if I worked through a cold I'd apologize to punters for coughing etc and they would actually look disappointed and crestfallen like 'how dare your bodily functions ruin my sexual fantasy'

This realization is, I think, a sort of shock/dissociation thing. It takes a while to come to terms with the fact that it is actually mainly exploitative - a man is picking you out from a catalogue on net/paper and he is evaluating you on mainly looks and how unsafe and intimate are the services you provide (ie Oral with no condom is a "must" for most men, as is kissing). You need money or want money or for whatever reason put yourself up for sale and he gets the choice of whether to pick, whether to pay, and whether he will pay how much you/agency think you are 'worth'. It makes you feel about as sexy as a damp squib! The men have the disposable money to spend and the physical advantage and therefore the power. Once you come to terms with that you become what's known as a "jaded hooker" - hating men and yourself etc, trying to get back at them or get power back by 'taking their money' and faking it. Which won't matter much to them anyway - if they have disposable incomes enough to regularly pay for sex. Some guys I met spent 300 a week!!! and were always trying out fresh girls.

The women having orgasms and "she enjoyed it too" are I think just mostly part of a carefully constructed fantasy world. The truth should never come out, heaven forbid! Of course she has to "enjoy" it, she will get a bad review if she doesn't and the reviews are getting harsher and more common in recent years especially since the economic climate is making guys determined to 'choose wisely' and get more 'bang for their buck'. Perhaps some women enjoy it - I think maybe the type who don't have to do it for the money as they have a good job etc and have a hubby and are perhaps swingers already. I have spoken to one such lady, but probably a hundred more who hate the job, hate the punters, hate the lying and try to get them in and out as quickly as possible.

I'm not denying there are a minority who genuinely like the work, but as I say that's probably women who are already set-up in life and already swing etc so sex with strangers is a turn-on to them. But only 1 woman I ever met would fall into this category.

Some sex addicts do it. Sex addiction is a really damaging disorder and, for some, getting paid for it is the most they can do to manage their appalling self-opinion (and it can pay for the coke to stop them thinking.) They'd probably claim they enjoy it but that's a mask.

you realise that actually most punters actually do NOT have your best interests at heart, ... they still only see you as a body and a set of holes for their pleasure.

This realization is, I think, a sort of shock/dissociation thing.

Isn't this largely why so many women refuse to look closely at it? (Feminism has the same problem!) It's almost unbearable to acknowledge that many men see women as subhuman ...

None of this is ideal ... but it's human. It's not illegal, nor should it be. The current law about 'living off immoral earnings' (brothel-keeping and pimping) was probably intended to make a distiction between organised sex trades and informal ones - but it's backfired on the workers, who are safer on shared premises with others around

Yes I agree x

Although I do believe that either men who purchase sex should maybe be criminalized, or at least there should be places where women can work together in relative safety and heavy penalties for attacking a woman in prostitution. Unlike now where the potential attackers can get a woman anonymously and into a 'private' space. The woman has no idea his real name or anything so reporting a description is rarely of use, unless totally distinctive. And in none of the cases I reported were any swabs etc taken for DNA. And it is hard to prove cases like where the woman consented to vaginal but not anal. She took payment and there was no contract written etc so very hard to prove she did not consent to one act but not the other. ie I consented to sex for x amount of money but not to being bitten and bruised )-: or to getting bodily fluids in my eye etc.

Yes , I think that when you are in the thick of something, it's really hard to fully acknowledge that it is harmful to you. Like in domestic abuse cases where the lady says "but he's a great dad", in prostitution you would say "but I chose it, the money is good". It's like a survival mechanism because if you acknowledged the realities you would crack-up! When you leave or just before is probably when you feel it most actually. I suffered a traumatic event in my pre-teen years and did that subconciously or automatically - the denial / separation of body from mind thing. My mind would only let me remember little bits at a time. I often wonder if this sort of gave me practice for the prostitution. And maybe increased my abilities to stay in it for as long as I did. I was not aware of that at the time though.

Maybe me and many others like me were already "desensitized" to the bad and risky sides of human nature before we entered prostitution?

I dunno! That's the sort of exploration therapy's good for. I think I was desensitized - or conditioned; had unhelpful values - to male violence, male domination and female submission, by my upbringing. I had very poor boundaries, low expectations of male behaviour and was considered a prime candidate for escort work by certain people (I intended to give it a go but couldn't drum up any enthusiasm for the customers!!) My posh-hooker friends came from families similar to mine. Landed on their feet but they were very lucky.

That said: people from perfectly sane, well-balanced backgrounds end up being abused. My parents did the groundwork, but plenty of abusers will put in the extra effort to condition their targets to abuse. I guess I got the lazy ones ...

ALIAS.
I totally agree that there are probably a miniscule number of prostitutes that do it cos they love the sex with any old bloke. And yes they probably already are swingers and shag multiple men for free anyway! In fact I know a woman who swings and she appaarently(from her stories) really does screw anyone and love it.

Its interesting, your accounts of men and how the vast majority are not normal, respectful men. If you read any of those forums the married men all claim to be decent family men who aren't nutters, who love their wives but just want more sex etc. They make it sound real casual and harmless. The single men usually give a different take. Think it would do some of these men to read your account, though I suppose they don't want to hear it.

ALIAS.
I totally agree that there are probably a miniscule number of prostitutes that do it cos they love the sex with any old bloke. And yes they probably already are swingers and shag multiple men for free anyway! In fact I know a woman who swings and she appaarently(from her stories) really does screw anyone and love it.

Its interesting, your accounts of men and how the vast majority are not normal, respectful men. If you read any of those forums the married men all claim to be decent family men who aren't nutters, who love their wives but just want more sex etc. They make it sound real casual and harmless. The single men usually give a different take. Think it would do some of these men to read your account, though I suppose they don't want to hear it.

I'm really on the fence about the legality issue, and this thread has certainly made me re-examine it. I can't really buy the idea of criminalising the punters per se. (I mean, obviously they should be prosecutable for any violent acts etc. beyond the transaction itself). This just seems to me like a dishonest way of punishing the prostitutes, removing their livelihood and infringing upon the liberty of the minority who choose to do it happily. Even if, as Alias says, that minority is only tiny, it still seems like a pretty basic human right in a liberal society that one owns one's own body and therefore has the right to rent it out.

At the very least, if it's going to be illegal than it should be honestly so. I can't really see the sense in saying "you have the right to supply, but we're going to enact laws that destroy all your demand so you can't actually make a living at it". It just seems hypocritical.

I remember many years ago seeing quite often, representatives from the English Collective of Prostitutes commenting on issues related to the trade whenever it came up in the news:

www.prostitutescollective.net

Their approach was always complete legalisation and proper protection from abuse; and that attempts to make it illegal just stem from the same view of women as powerless and passive that give rise to the problems in the first place. Maybe this is where my reluctance towards legal restrictions comes from.

Would be interested to know if Alias, Ohmetoo or anyone else know much about them, or what proportion of sex workers their views really represent. Must admit I have heard anything about them in many years. I also admit I've never known anyone even remotely involved in the sex industry so I know nothing first hand and could be talking bollox.

Alias, thanks for your explanation. I think I am more baffled now than before. How can you be a mum of a little child and a prostitute at the same time? I mean, you were already a mum when you decided to enter that underworld!Also taken into account that you were "cut off from the world". What if one of those clients harmed you? Who was going to take care of the child? And your father and sibling? Didn't you seek their help?

confidence

Yes I have heard of the ECP and visited their site. I am torn between criminalizing the johns and regulating the sex industry so those working in it are, like you say, protected from abuse. Regulation would need to come down hard on anyone abusing or assaulting a sex worker though and then the "easy target" for latent violent men would be reduced.

I would support a method of regulation like they have in New Zealand where all sex must be protected, brothels must have panic buttons in every room, all clients are checked for stis visually before any service is given. As far as I'm aware they only let legal, registered brothels with health and safety etc operate and shut down the illegal ones. I would not support a system like Amsterdam where it is largely unregulated as then it becomes a haven for traffickers and pimps.

Sofia

How could I be the mother of a little child and a prostitute at the same time? erm.... by using nurseries and childcare providers and working for an agency which provide premises too so all your work is kept out of the home. I would have never worked from home unless I was starving to death, or left my children with someone I did not trust. Too dangerous for the children.
The clients did harm me, but only once enough to be hospitalized. I always took care of my own children. I think it's a common misconception that all prostitutes have chaotic lives etc and have their children taken away - soooo many times clients asked me if I had children but i always denied it although they seemed to think all prostitutes have their children in care!. I arranged childcare via a nursery or registered childminder for the days I was working then "clocked in" for a shift with the agency and "clocked out" picked the children up and went home. Sort of like a "normal" working mother, but not a nice job at all.
My father and sister live on the other side of the world, my sister was a young teenager at the time and my dad had a huge set his own problems due to the circumstances of my mother's death.

What you describe about New Zealand certainly seems the best option. In an industry like that, any solution via regulation would have to involve SERIOUS regulation. I particularly like the panic buttons idea.

One advantage of a system like that is that it could justify really high penalities for those breaking it. There would be no civil liberties or sexual freedom argument because people would have the freedom to go to prostitutes if they like - they just have to do it in such a way that the workers are guaranteed decent protection from abuse. Those who go outside the system are then clearly only doing it so they can abuse, and can be prosecuted as such.

Yes that does sound a good idea, but the only problem with that is that prostitution may be presented to young women as a glamorous way to make easy money, and whilst the hours clock-in clock-out may be the same I truly believe it's not good for the psyche even if there is no violence involved, unless someone is totally comfortable with having sex with random strangers they haven't known for 5 mins (which is probably a minority). I'd make a requirement that there would be NO advertising of brothel jobs etc - if a woman wanted to find out about a brothel and apply it would have to be finding it the same way a punter would through specific adult channels or word of mouth. I wouldn't be putting ads up at the local jobcentre.

I wouldn't be putting ads up at the local jobcentre. - That's a very good point especially as, in this country, jobseekers could be forced to take the work

No, of course it's not a 'normal' job. Normal jobs don't require you to let other people penetrate your orifices.

Wonder how it's working in NZ? I'll look it up tomorrow; am tired now.

Thanks again for your amazing thread, OP. Hope you sleep well tonight.

I strongly agree with last post of alias - no advertising, and also the fact that even if there's no violence this job is DAMAGING for a woman pcychologically, for life in most cases unless she's very lucky, whether she realises it at the time, or feels the damage later. As I said before, re human rights, men can go to swingers clubs or no strings-sex sites to get just sex (maybe with married women who are in sexless marriages). The other glaring point is, if the vast majority aer nasty and abusive (not respecting the boundaries they are asked for), it means that for majority THAT'S THE APPEAL of using prostitutes, and they would not get off/pay for clinical clean sex with visiual checks beforehand, they'd feel cheated of their money. Which is kind if good as that way prostitution would be a small industry geared for just the minor number of decent guys, or those who are masochists and enjoy staged abuse themselves.
As to 'selling your body is your right' - in korea someone (a boy) sold his kidney just to get money for computer - and there was an outrage as to whether it should be allowed. WE are talking about teenagers who sell their body without realising what they aer doing because they are not mature enough. Yes, a woman 28+ may do it from a strong perspective and because she's thick skinned enough, but most fall into the business too early to make such decisions. Also swingers aer somewhat different because they do chose who to sleep with, even though many people but those they fancy, everyone has types who revolt them (what about smelly punters who refuse to take showers? as OP told us), I bet swingers at least go prepared to a club abd chose whose 'aura' they like.