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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I am being deliberatly vague sorry.

236 replies

PrisonerZero · 30/08/2011 14:12

Say, for example a person was in a bad relationship, a non violent (as yet) but highly critical, verbally abusive, mentally abusive, controlling relationship where the male partner drinks to excess and the female partner dreads the afternoon as it gets closer and closer to the time he will be home. As well as having her own older DC she also has a small baby, her current partner is this childs father and on the birth certificate.

The female realises she needs to end the relationship but is scared to do so - mainly because he has told her repeatidly that he would take the baby away (baby is less than 3 months old and breastfed). She believes that he would 100% take the baby. He would take him from her arms even, or the second she turned her back. He would take him from his bed in the middle of the night, or from the pram when out walking. If he was locked out he would find a way to get in. He is on the babys birth certificate and has parental responsibility. He wouldn't hurt the baby.

What could the female do to pre-emptivily stop this happening? How could she be sure that she wouldn't lose her child? Is there any way of getting anything down on paper saying that he can't take the child away without him knowing that she has done it?

OP posts:
Lougle · 02/09/2011 13:00

Does her exH have lots of contact with the DD1? Would the exH understand if she were to explain what this marriage is like, or does he already know? How would the exH feel if the woman were to ask him to have his daughter for an extended period (ie a few days) while she got to a place of safety?

HerHissyness · 02/09/2011 13:02

Carbon monoxide monitors, get them and position them in the bedrooms and by the boiler.

She has to leave for the sake of the baby. She has to leave for her own sake, she has to leave as this man is vile, dangerous, and has threatened her life.

You have written this, you say it sounds so bad written down, BECAUSE IT IS. the normalisation that goes on in an abusive relationship is clear to see here. It's OK, every abused woman does it, but the events that are going on are NOT OK, are NOT acceptable and NO-ONE in a healthy relationship goes through this.

How did it go with Woman's Aid? Follow the list of what to take and get it togehter and go.

because there have been threats to life, its better if the victim is re-housed, and restraining orders, prohibitive steps orders etc are obtained to keep this person away from his DW AND his DC, as threats have been made against BOTH of them.

She needs to get help from where ever and who ever to get out of this situation. There really is NOTHING more important on her agenda than getting to a place of safety.

NormaStanleyFletcher · 02/09/2011 13:02

Just a quick note - if her baby is breastfed then I think there is a very very good case that he could not keep the baby away from her for any period of tiime. She should get advice on this - maybe on Monday

PrisonerZero · 02/09/2011 13:33

As rare as it is, ExH is a fantastic father in every way. Can't fault him. He is a good person and i'm sure he would do anything it took to protect his DC and maybe to a lesser extent, her. He already has his DC 50% of the time so there will be opportunity for her to this whilst they (the older DC) are away. it makes her harder for her to understand why her partner would want to take the baby away, surely she has a proven track record of giving fair access to children and not causing problems. She knows that fathers have every right to play an equal part in bringing her their children and has never used them as weapons or tried to place restrictions on their relationship with each other. It can only be because he knows it is the thing that will hurt her the most.

Someone linked on another thread 'signs you are dating a loser' and this man ticks every box. And yet she still trundled along putting things off because she was pregnant/it would soon be Christmas/had plans for something or other/it was just taking him time to get used to things/he was stressed at work/it was ok sometimes/he was misunderstood/etc etc etc. She caught herself doing it the other day, worrying that Christmas would be ruined and then realised that a Christmas spent with him would be ruined away so no point in making excuses. The only real excuse is that she is scared. She keeps thinking that she would miss his family, miss out on the nice things they do, but its not worth the pay off.

He has a vile temper. He can be happily chatting about one thing and in the next breathe is telling her she has ruined her DC, that she is a bad mother, that her DC are pussys and need to be men, that she ought to be doing this and that, that he doesnt get enough attention. He is dismissive of anything she says, she always says stupid things, says the wrong thing in front of people, has no opinion worth listening to. Its the looks he gives her, as if she is nothing. She doesn't make enough effort, always looks crap. He was drunk a few weeks ago and wanted to take the baby out, she stood her ground and refused, woke up the baby and held him so that he would have to take him from her to leave with him, and in the end he gave up but she hasn't been allowed to forget it. She has been warned that it is the first and last time she will tell him what to do with his baby. That she is skating on thin ice. When the older DC are away and he has had a drink she will sleep in there room with the baby if he has had a drink. Otherwise when he wets the bed she gets wet too. Sometimes he buys her flowers when he realises he has been especially bad.

She knows she is looking for an excuse, waiting for him to do something that can justify her leaving, when really just being unhappy is a perfectly good excuse. But she doesn't feel her own feelings are a worthwhile reason. She hopes he meets someone else, cheats on her, hits her even as then she has an excuse. People often think that because they can't see the bruises then it can't be that bad.

Logically she understands and knows the facts and figures, know why she thinks and feels the way she does. She would tell anyone else in the same situation to leave.

The womens aid website is scary, good advice, but very scary to read though - lots of stuff about how to protect yourself, I can't see her needing to follow the advice then the logical part of her tells her that yes actually she does. She has been waiting until she is alone to call them as little ears might over hear things they are not supposed to and innocently repeat it. Wouldn't be good. But she will call them this afternoon. She feels like a bit of an idiot phoning them though, whats she supposed to say? That hes mean? She doesn't want to waste their time.

OP posts:
Lougle · 02/09/2011 13:33

The other thing she has to remember, is that she could set up a hotmail account, and ask Women's Aid to phone her. That wouldn't show on the phone records.

Mouseface · 02/09/2011 13:45

This is such a frightening thread to read.

Zero - have you looked HERE yet?

You can get additional advice wrt leaving, legal rights etc.

Please listen to the advice on here too. There are plenty of women who have been in your shoes. They know how you're feeling, which is maybe why reading this is scaring me so much.

Mouseface · 02/09/2011 13:46

Sorry, ignore my link, I see that you have looked at the WA site already.

HerHissyness · 02/09/2011 13:48

"She knows she is looking for an excuse, waiting for him to do something that can justify her leaving"

He has threatened to KILL her and her BABY What more do you need? Seriously, that's a CRIME!

"She knows that fathers have every right to play an equal part in bringing her their children and has never used them as weapons or tried to place restrictions on their relationship with each other. It can only be because he knows it is the thing that will hurt her the most."

GOOD FATHERS have that right. Those that abuse, threaten and harm DON'T. FULL STOP.

Please trust the friend, please lean as hard as you need to on her, she won't let anyone down. She may be the place of immediate safety that the victim need to run to.

Please just ring WA, chat through with them, they will have heard all you have to say to them before, they will believe you, they will feel for you and they will help you in every way they can. You are brave, we can all see this, you can AND WILL get out.

You can get out, you CAN get protection against him, you CAN keep him away from you and from your baby if that is deemed appropriate. I would urge you to do this. for your own protection. I don't want to hear of another woman and children killed on the news, OK?

(((hugs)))

Mouseface · 02/09/2011 13:49

YOU ARE NOT WASTING THEIR TIME!

They deal with all levels of abuse. This is abuse you know. Emotional abuse at the very least.

Call them. Make a list of what you want to say and then burn it. Putting it down on paper will make it easier to say it out loud. See if they will call you back? Or e-mail them with your number and ask them to call you?

HerHissyness · 02/09/2011 13:49

OP, listen to Mousy, she has been there, done this and got the T-Shirt!

NormaStanleyFletcher · 02/09/2011 13:49

WA would NOT think she is silly. They will understand. They will be on her side.

WibblyBibble · 02/09/2011 14:02

He will not manage to take your baby. My mentalfuck ex tried to tell me this. He then didn't even go to court (he has contact with her, and the time he had her to stay over longer than one night he returned her looking like shit and saying he couldn't do it again until she was older). He's emotionally abusing you with this, and although it's the most horrible threat he could make to you (other than violence to the baby or your children, obviously), it is just more threatening and bullshit and you need to just get out.

ameliagrey · 02/09/2011 14:42

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Mouseface · 02/09/2011 14:44

amelia - I don't think there's any need to post that, do you? Not really helpful.

Some people do this as part of a coping strategy, almost as if they write about someone else, it's not them.

OohThatsMyTractor · 02/09/2011 14:54

Amelia that was a bit uncalled for, it has obviously taken Prisoner a lot to pluck up the courage to post here, please don't upset upset her over such a silly thing.

Prisoner if it is easier for you to write in the third person then please continue to do so, we are listening to you and don't find it annoying. I'm sorry I don't have any advice for you other than to second what the previous posters, especially mouse have said.

oldqueenie · 02/09/2011 15:08

great that you are going to get legal advice. to answer one of your ?s in your op a court can make "without notice" (ex parte) orders to protect you and dcs by way of injunctions not to use or threaten violence, not to harass or pester under the Family Law Act and orders under the children Act stating that the baby is to live with you and is not to be removed from your care under the Children Act. what is appropriate will depend on your circs. but hope it helps to know what is possible... Good luck.

Mouseface · 02/09/2011 15:16

Thanks for posting that queenie - I knew there was something that could be put into place.

Just a quick question, can a person have this order in place without an attempt from the partner to separate the mother and child/ren?

oldqueenie · 02/09/2011 15:37

there are no hard and fast rules... but for the Children Act orders the most important factor is the welfare of the child concerned and there must be a case to be made that removing a tiny breastfed baby from its primary carer would be damaging... a solicitor would need to help op set out in proper detail in a statement why she fears he would remove the baby and why this would be damaging etc... alternatively if she removes herself from the situation with the baby to a place of safety she could then obtain orders from the court if needed but give him notice so he can participate.. meant to say too a factor also v much in her favour re residence of baby is baby's half siblings... but residence of such a tiny baby will to my mind be a no brainer in her favour...

Mouseface · 02/09/2011 16:00

Yes, I agree re the other children living together. Courts don't like to spilt siblings up.

So if she moves out or he leaves (unlikely he'll go), she could get a non molestation order and anything else that the court/solicitor deems necessary.

It's worth looking into that in the A-Z Of Domestic Violence on the Women's Aid website Zero, HERE

solidgoldbrass · 02/09/2011 16:10

Something this woman can and should take strength from is the friend who pointed out that everyone else hates the husband. This is a massive crack in the wall of lies this horrible man has built - early posts suggested that the man is 'popular'. No no no. Everyone hates him because he is obviously abusive and controlling - abusive men very, very frequently claim that everyone loves them and their partners will be despised and shunned or locked up for daring to leave them. It's crap. This woman can get away from this man and he willnot be able to take the baby. She can get injunctions in place against him - after the threats to kill, she could get one today.

Mouseface · 02/09/2011 16:34

She could have him arrested for the threats to kill.

Zero - You've had some fantastic advice on here, you really have and every single post is an indication that people do care and do believe you.

Every poster wants you and your children to be safe. To feel safe. Living in fear is horrendous. Fear will crush you. He knows that.

The ONLY power he has over you is fear. He will use that fear to make you small, to keep you quiet, to make you think this is all you.

Fear will keep you there, in his world.

He can control you with fear. He has wrapped you up in fear, not of him, of the unknown.

Fear of what he might do. The threat is stronger than the action. He holds your life in his hands and that gives him power. Fear gives him power.

Take that away from him.

Slowly, a little at a time, take the fear away. Believe in yourself. Move forward, you are stuck in the world he has created for you.

Start to find ways out.

Make little changes, start to block out his words. Start to build a wall up around yourself.

If you don't fear him, he can't hurt you emotionally. The fear is all that he has.

SirSugar · 02/09/2011 19:12

Zero, this is heart wrenching stuff...I want her to leave yesterday....

HerHissyness · 02/09/2011 20:09

hear hear SirSugar, SGB, Mousey, et al

notsorted · 02/09/2011 20:57

Dear zero, fear of the unknown is terrible. Think of those childhood nightmares, we as adults still can fall into that pit of numbing fear but knowledge is power and can take some of the fear away.
Don't know if this helps, but my ex called police on me when DS was about two or three weeks old. He was breastfed and police came and said basically it was crap. To arrange taking a breastfed baby away from its mother is so hard - just think of the practicalities from authorities' point of view. I know it's hard to quash those fears and you are probably tired with small baby let alone all the rest of rubbish that man is throwing at you. It really isn't going to happen. Trust the posters here and your friend and WA. He is silly, impotent and stupidly angry, yours is the rational, sensible and caring approach. Keep safe, keep calm and talk to everyone who might be able to help.

PrisonerZero · 02/09/2011 21:12

Thank you all for your advice.

WA was busy this afternoon, tried 4 times. It says on they are less busy between 7pm-7am but no chance then to call. If he had gotten drunk tonight then he would have been dead to the world in a few hours and she could have called then but he only had a few tonight. Half glad they didn't answer, no idea how that conversation would have gone. It was difficult enough to dial the number.

Very reassuring to see the messages saying that it is very likely that the baby would stay with its mother. Didn't realise that there were systems in place that could sort things so quickly - I was imagining it being dragged out over months, being away from the baby for weeks, and then only being given Saturdays or something.

AmeliaGrey, you didn't need to get your post deleted, it was a fair comment and i'm sure it is annoying. Sorry. I think its partly because i don't want to be held accountable for whats written on here, I have written about this before under a different name and was recognised. Whomever recognised me reported the situation to SS and I got a visit from them. Stupidly, in a panic I didn't take the opportunity when I had it, I was pregnant and didn't know my arse from my elbow

OP posts:
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