here we go. i knew it wouldnt take long....(long post!)

[ThatVikRinA22]

I have a very complex background, but to cut a long story short i have recently got in touch with my brother after about 12 years.

We had a very very bad upbringing. we were neglected and abused. i ended up in and out of care, he ended up homeless and on heroin.

i escaped our abusive parents at 15, married at 19, and have built a wonderful life for myself, with lovely DH and my two much loved children. I feel very guilty that i left my brother there, but i honestly thought he would be ok, they were very different with him while i was there. It seems when i left he got it, (then when he left, our mother got it)

My brother has only recently managed to turn his life around, but is doing very well, is off drugs, married, and has a child whom he appears to dote on. He admits he still has some issues around alcohol and cannabis.He has been nothing but honest with me.

we havent met up yet, as he is undergoing chemo treatment for hep c, but the plan is to meet up at some point. We do speak on the phone. I am being very careful, and am mindful of my job (i am a police officer)

Up until now, the subject of our "parents" hasnt really come up, though i am aware that our father (my step father to be precise) is dead and our mother now lives alone. My brother has chosen to stay in touch with her. I cut contact many years ago and am all the better for it - i did try for years to engage with her - but she is hard as nails, bitter, has a sense of entitlement that galls me and takes no responsibility for our past, and basically when i had contact with them both, i got very ill with panic attacks - when i cut contact they stopped. That says it all really.

My mother (and step thing) emigrated and never bothered to get in touch - i went on to move house and change my phone number.

i did find out when he (step thing) died, and my mother apparently then came back to live in the uk.

My brother says that she was very angry with me.

Anyway - i spoke recently to my brother who states that she is not averse to making contact with me. (ha ha ha fucking ha.)

he says she sends her best. (whatever the fuck that is)

he appears to want me to bury the hatchet, and appears to think i should be grateful that she wants some contact or something. he reckons he has dealt with his demons, and im very pleased for him, but the truth is that my life has been so much easier, calmer, nicer, without her in it. She will not tell me who my father is, and i cant forgive her for the things she put me through as a child.

I want a relationship with my brother. i want to meet his child and wife.

But now, with this rearing its head so quickly into our relationship - well i am a little spooked.
would you continue down this path?
would you continue to try and build some kind of relationship with my brother?
Would you give this woman a chance?
i dont want to end up feeling sorry for her, and i will, i always did, she is manipulative, and i have no doubt now, that she probably cuts a fairly pathetic figure - brother says she is an alcoholic.
but really - i feel like i got past all this and now.....i just dont need it. I have been so strong for so long, and i dont want that to waiver.

im sorry for the length of this post....and thanks if you got this far! i just want to hear what others think.
DH says i must do what i want, and truth is i would love to know who my father is, yet she always held this over me, and would never divulge even the smallest details, i dont even have a name., but i think she likes the sense of power and i dont want to give her that, i want to be free of how i felt all those years ago.

i guess my options are to back away completely from the whole lot of them.
to state clearly that i dont want contact with my mother
or to bite the bullet and allow contact with them all.

thoughts please....

well....im not really angry with her, i just dont understand her but i doubt i ever will. and i dont really want to. i dont want to hear her explanations or her excuses.

i guess i have answered my own question really. ive just got to be strong enough to say it when my brother has another go...

actually i doubt from knowing her that she would explain or excuse. who am i kidding. thats what i want. not what she wants. for her - she wont feel she did anything wrong in any of this.

"Just" say no x

yeah....i know...
thanks all, seems everyone is reinforcing my initial thoughts anyway, just need to find a way to say it to someone who i dont know very well, its obvious that me and my brother are quite different people and already i feel quite distant when we speak because we clearly havent got the same sorts of opinions or values - i
will check back tomorrow - best get to bed now. thanks again.

If your mother did feel any 'warmth' towards you at all she would not hold out on telling you about your dad.
It may be that given her history of drug and alcohol abuse she actually doesn't know - and yet she still uses it against you

If SS were involved, you should be able to access your files - and it may be in there. Or ask older relatives?

Agree with others that you could make it clear to your db that you want contact with him only

You cannot go forward with this woman. There's no skipping off into sunset with her holding hands. I don't need a crystal ball to see she would bring you much misery. You'll torture yourself over her, you'll make yourself ill. It will impact on your family unit. You have marched so bloody far up a hill to get to a place of contentment and happiness ( well most of the time....) with your life.

Well you ain't sacrificing it. You owe her zilch. She sucks the life and joy out of you.

So that's that dealt with. But your brother.... That's the hard bit isn't it? If you feel he'll listen then you sit with him with a cuppa and a plate of biscuits and you say plainly you love him, are excited at him and his family being in your life and you are proud of him. But mother dear isn't in your equation. Or write it down in a letter. You don't have to do a big confessional explanation. Just a sorry but no. I think you might have to grit your teeth and let him sort that out in his own head for a while. I hope he's not wanting to create Happy Families....

Second, third, fourth chances are great but Vicar - this is banging your head on a wall with nails in it.

Op so sorry to hear about your situation.
Although I've not experienced what you have, I do have a very manipulative mother who tries to play my sis and I off against each other. So please, whatever you do, don't be deceived by your mother playing 'nice' with your bro and pretending she wants to see you; that's bs, she just knows he'll come and deliver that message back to you. It's clear your life is much better without her in it and you don't owe her anything at all so be harsh here!
Also, from what you've said, I don't necessarily think a relationship with your bro will work out either, tho I hate to say that to you. From the sounds of it, you will be constantly repeating your intention not to be in touch with your mother and all the other wastes of space he's trying to sell you on, and tbqh, that will wear thin very quickly. If I were you, I would unfriend him on FB and explain that you are not trying to insult him, you just don't want to be exposed more than you need to be to your mother. Stay very much in the driving seat wrt the relationship with your bro and if it seems not to be working out, distance yourself. The most important thing for you is your own and your family's wellbeing.

I strongly agree with the consensus here, with a personal slant of my own.

I was brought up in a very dysfunctional family, though not as bad as yours by the sounds of it. Myself and all my siblings are all pretty damaged by it in various ways.

We have a good friend who was brought up in a SEVERELY dysfunctional family, whose mother was as bad or worse than yours sounds. She left home at 16, made her own way through some unbelievably bad experiences, eventually made a life for herself and completely cut all contact with her mother. She's now highly successful in her job and has a fantastic family.

We were talking about this recently and we concluded that the reason she's more together than I am is that her childhood was SO bad, that all she could do was sink or swim, and the only way to swim was to reject it totally, including cutting all contact with the people involved and drawing a line under any influence they may have had on her life. Whereas for me, it was just PRETTY bad, but not in a way that justifies demonising my parents and cutting contact with them. So all the stuff still goes round and round, v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-ly working its way out. It IS better now, and I suppose I have the advantage of a basically very positive relationship with my mother. But her way was quicker and more effective, if brutal.

It sounds like you're in a similar situation to her. You know that your mother has nothing positive to offer you, that you did the right thing losing contact and that it would be a mistake to regain it. You may be tempted by the title of "mother", but sometimes these things are just words and don't carry any of the actual meaning they're supposed to. By all means meet up with your brother, but be clear about your decision re the toxic old bag and don't listen to anybody else about it - it's not their place to say.

Don't contact her.

Vicar - I hope you manage to get some sleep.

My Mum is lovely, would do anything for me etc etc etc but we still don't have a good relationship and I often get my 'mothering' from other people because it's not wrapped up in 'issues' - so even those of us with 'good' Mums don't always have the relationships with our mothers we would like :(

The same with my brother - brought up together, 'nice' childhood - we don't get on. I love him, but he's a sanctimonious shit who drives me up the fucking pole - chalk/cheese. We don't share the same ideals/world views/feelings. We currently live in different countries and rarely speak/email - seems to suit us both fine, though not our parents, but frankly I am beyond caring about that. I would love the kind of relationship with my brother others have with theirs - but I don't :( I have other people who 'fill the void'

You have a lovely DH & 2 lovely kids - a good life - only bring into it what enhances that, not that which spoils it
x

I think you have to look at why you want to know about your father. Although I can see it's absolutely natural to want to know, think about it - your mum is so toxic - do you really think she would have attracted a nice, normal, happy man?

Having said that, I think that given the way she is, the chance is high that she doesn't actually know who your father is. If she did, she would have shouted it out at some point - telling you that you were just like him. It wouldn't surprise me to learn she hadn't a clue who your father is and that she is pretending she does know in order to torment you.

If she gave you a name and you had contact with him, what do you think that would me like? Think of the pig she married. What if you found your father was like him? Can you imagine the horror?

What about your ILs? Are they sane and normal and happy? Do you have a parent/daughter with them?

just checking back in, thanks so far.

finally - yes SS were involved but i already tried to get access to my files and they told me they did not have them - apparently they only keep them for so long, and mine are long gone.

imperialBlether - i know scant details - that he was in the army and continued in his army career after he left my mother - she says he sent her a letter and money for an abortion from another country, she never saw him again. She just wont tell me anything about him other than that - no name, nothing. She clearly thought she was in a relationship where he clearly thought she was a no strings fling, at least thats the impression i always got. No one else in the family even knew she was seeing someone so unfortunately no one else had a clue who he was either. All my rellies are now dead.
Sadly i have no relationship with the inlaws either, and nor do my children, but we have been fine and done ok for ourselves. DH has a somewhat strained relationship with his family, they are just very distant.

Vicar, do you really want to know more about this man? He thought she'd had an abortion and didn't keep in touch with her.

Sometimes it's better not to know, isn't it?

do you ask that as someone who knows their parentage?
i would like to know my identity - yes. i don't want to meet him. i don't expect to play happy families.
i want to know where my green eyes come from.
When a doctor asks me if there is history of illness in the family - how do i know?
and if i say i dont know - then i feel like i have to explain.
how do i know if ive ever walked past him in the street? He had family i think in my home town. (i remember something about a sister - i think they used the sisters flat for meetings, but i think i was told this as a very young child and may have it wrong)
its not better not to know, no.
I have come to terms with the fact i will never know - but its a part of me genetically that i know absolutely nothing about - and i feel like that knowledge is missing and, yes, i have always wanted to know - a part of me aches to know. i dont expect contact. in fact - stupid as this sounds, a spiritualist told me he is dead, when i lost my sister in a car crash i went to see one....long story and yes i know....
but there you go. i cant help how i feel. and i suppose thats still something that my mother has over me and i dont want her to hold that sort of power - which is another good reason not to see her, because i will never be any the wiser and she will know it bothers me, and give her just a bit more ammunition.

im ok. its just this has i suppose stirred all those unanswered questions, that will stay unanswered.
unless my brother can find out...but i dont think we are at that sort of stage in our relationship either.

I'd also strongly advise not getting back in contact with your mother. It didn't do you any good then and it won't do you any good now. Nothing would get resolved for you, because you're dealing with someone who doesn't want or can't support your wish for openness and honesty, neither in terms of recognising how bad your childhood was, nor of your wish to know something about your father.

I can understand your wish to keep in contact with your brother, because he's a blood-relative with whom you shared a lot of what went on when you were both children. And there is much to be admired as to how he turned his life around, so naturally you want to be supportive of him in how he recovered (as did you!). But it should still be on your terms as regards no contact with your mother. Please don't get sucked into that dysfunctional dynamic again - even if it would only be you in contact with your mother, that will have an impact on your children and your DH simply because of the effect on you.

There's a phrase: "The past is another country." It's ok to look at it on a map, but don't buy an airline ticket.

yeah i know you are all right - thank you though for taking the time to help me reach the same conclusion.

i like that phrase hugglymugly....
i should remember that one.

Vicar - I understand that you want to know about your father - some people do, some people don't. I know I would if I was in your position. I feel terrible for you that your mother may be able to give you that information, but wont - that's pure evil.

I hope that you can continue the relationship you are starting to build with your brother - but you need to lay down some boundaries with him (not wanting to be badgered about a relationship with your mother and not wanting comments/updates about her OR TO HER about you/your family. I would still do what I said in my first post - tell him that if she gives you every detail about your father that she has, you will consider contact with her. If she does you are on your way to finding out what you can about your father and you can consider contact - then refuse it.

You have a lovely little unit with DH and your two kids - don't let any of this alter your equilibrium with life - it's not worth it.

Her timing is not impeccable, it is planned, you know that right? She knows exactly what she is doing! I am waiting for the time my mother gets on fb!

I don't have a relationship with my mother, due to emotional abuse suffered as a child. It doesn't even touch the sides, compared to what you have been through, but it does mean that I will never contact her again.

I have a relationship with my brother, in that it is mainly fb, as I am in Australia & him in UK. MY sister was fine up until I started to tell her what she didn't want to hear & now isn't speaking to me. Her loss. I have learned, since leaving the UK that she is very much like our mother & anyone who stands up to her/doesn't agree with her are not worth knowing, now that includes me.

I won't go there again with my mother for exactly the reasons you said, my life has been so much easier, calmer, nicer, without her in it and you shouldn't feel obliged either.

If you really wish to continue seeing your brother, you simply tell your him (if you feel you need to) that while you are happy to be a part of his life, this doesn't mean that you want any part of your mother's. If he starts to talk about her, you change the subject. Don't write anything personal on his wall on fb. Keep it private/email.

You need to think of what is best for you here, and to me, the potential for your easy, calm, nice life to blow is huge, if you let this woman in.

i just cannot go back there

Then don't.

Is there any other way you can trace your father? A relative around at the time?
Unless you are prepared to talk to her (and bearing in mind that she may not tell you as per her track record, or worse, start to blackmail you in some way for the answers you want) you may just have to concede defeat on this one matter.

viacr, it is hard. My brother & sister have both tried to get me to reconnect & I have been resolute, because the way I see, she just wants to hurt me. But she doesn't any more. Because she is no one to me.

But my fear is, that she will hurt my dds, because she will know that would hurt me! So I am protecting us all. Which is what you need to do, protect yourself, so you are all safe from her.

thanks again everyone for taking the time to respond.

I hadnt even thought about these issues for ages, years, until now - most of the time i just get on with life, but i suppose the fact that my brother speaks about her etc has just brought it to the fore.

im not sure any of this was a great idea tbh. i spoke to my brother on fb last night, not for long, i couldnt face a proper conversation, and its clear we have very different values.

im tired at the moment, and all of this feels difficult today. but there we go. i need to remember i can control all of this, and remember to take control of all of this, and not let things run away with me in a direction i dont want to go.

Good Luck, Vicar! It's hard, but remember the reasons why you feel like this.

Vicar, SS are supposed to keep files for a person's lifetime. We keep ours archived for 70 years, soon to increase to 99 as people are living much longer. If you have the heart for it I would get back in touch with the data protection person for your local authority and kick up a stink if they can't produce your files. If they have been destroyed that is dreadful. (unless you are 85 years old....)

Hi Vicar I see that everyone seems to agree that you shouldn't get in contact with your mother again. I don't disagree with this, but I think that you should ask yourself the following question;
how would you feel if you woke up tomorrow and was told that she had died?
Would you wish you'd met with her? Or at least tried to find out who your father is one more time? Would you feel guilty that you hadn't given her one last chance?
I'm very much in for self preservation, but I think you have to consider the feelings you may experience when it becomes to late to make any contact with her.
Anyway, I hope you make a good decision and it all goes well with your db.

eric - i phoned the social services dept that dealt with my case about 9 years ago when i heard that my parents had emigrated. I still have the social workers name who dealt with my case.

Why would they tell me that they have no records?

Why would they tell me that they only keep them for so long?

i am completely and utterly confused - i left it with them for a few days before phoning back and they said they had no records and that files were only kept for so many years

i am 39 now. the social services investigation began when i was about 11. My brother and i were placed on the "at risk" register for quite some time.

monoid - she wont tell me. its pointless. and i will probably feel the same way as when i got told my step thing had died. ie - nothing. I dont think there is anything to be gained for myself in contact with her. She would gain. not me. I think i am ok with my decision to opt out of contact with her.

i would love to see the social services files....

i think there was a conflict of interest in that the social worker who dealt with my case had dealt with my mother previously, but as a victim, he knew her, and i always got the impression that he was biased. He asked me for deatils of abuse in front of both my parents, which of course i didnt dare give due to them being there, i lied. i said nothing, the social worker was a doddery old git, but there were plenty of hospital visits, broken bones, concussions etc on record, and i had spoken to the school and the child welfare officer about the abuse.

if the files should still be there then i will phone again. i would like to see them.