After divorce, trying to move on is like doing a square dance with both feet tied together. Update.

[Wisedupwoman]

First came to MN (a life-saver) in March:

Then DH, now XH (very quick divorce) was into second OW which I found out through his deceitful, sloppy and disgusting attempts to take the cowards way out. Could not believe the man I loved for 20 years had spent 4 years lying and cheating his way through life and who then went on to try and manipulate all our DC's (and still is, divorce doesn't change anything).

We are now into mediation, I have a sol who is waiting in the wings to advise on settlements. I have, despite all the turmoil, secured a better job on higher salary and our DD has a place at 6th form. XH has been living with OW since he left, and I went no contact within 2 weeks of his leaving. He hates this as he is unable to control the situation so interrogates DC's - my adult DS's have cut him out, yet XH still tries with eldest DS, who finds it hard not to feel sorry for XH despite his awful behaviour. All our friends have cut XH out, none of them liked him it turns out and his colleagues have long called XH 'the artful dodger'. So this was a man who led a double life and I have been trying to come to terms with this and move on.

This thread is about that - trying to move on and deal with the reality that whilst I am trying to hold my chin up and tits out, XH is going to be a part of my life through our DD whether I like it or not.

I want to give my heartfelt thanks and gratitude to everyone who has thus far been so wonderful and unstinting in their MN support for me - who have walked the journey with me even in the midst of their own sadness.

Good morning Saff, am also typing very quietly, god talk about parallel lives!

Well, I don't know when I'll hear. Up to meeting we had quite a few texts and emails and a couple of phone calls, it was pretty equal both ways, felt really ok just to text silly conversational stuff like 'just cookin', will mail later'.

I just don't know, Saff, I texted him last night and he was out with some friends, said he had v lovely time and lovely to meet me, when we said goodbye he asked me if i fancied doing it again sometime, I said yes.

But you never know do you? Whether that's just something people say as a polite gesture? Having said that he could've 'escaped' at any point in the afternoon and didn't! I didn't get the impression he's a player, he was very up front and candid about losing his DP, he hasn't been on any other dates, I was the first one.

God, I just don't know. We are similar in some ways and different in others', that's a good thing, right? He clearly values family life, is laid back and philosophical about life.

I don't know what the rules are really, don't want to come across too keen, but now we've met I'm not sure whether to carry on as we were beforehand - i guess if I assume he is still interested I'll know pretty quick if he's had time to reflect and decide I'm not for him?

WWYD??????

I actually feel ridiculously teenage and keep checking my phone!!!

May x post here, but I texted DD every hour and she was fine, respected my privacy.

She asked a couple of questions - was he nice, was he good looking, where did we go.

And then she left it and was fine. so it looks like I have handled it fine really.
Annie I didn't think you were unkind at all, what you said helped me to untangle some of the teenagery manipulations that go on from the stuff that really needed addressing. I always find your posts very insightful, so thank you.

Hey Wisey!!! Sounds like a great night and everything you deserve.

At our age, there are no rules!!!

Kind of you to say so. I may to a certain extent have been projecting, as I'm fecked if I'd let my boys, precious though they are, dictate my love life (assuming I can be arsed to have one at some point). Who's the mama anyway?

Arf Annie. How true!

As they're boys - excuse the stereotype - I would probably have to say exactly that to them before they got the picture, too (but humorously of course). DS3 in particular does not do subtlety.

As for Longboat Man, do him a favour: you have both just met, for the first time, your first internet date ever. It would be a bit stalkerish of him to be texting you like crazy immediately afterwards, don't you think? If he mentioned it to his friends last night they would no doubt have advised him to give you a breather before contacting you. They might even have suggested he meet a few other people before deciding which one he wants to see again, though I won't say that's what you should do. One pleasant afternoon with an attractive stranger doth not a lifelong romance make. It does provide proof, though, that Nice Men Are Out There. Of course we'll all love it if he does turn out to be a long term prospect as that would be artistically correct, but realistically he may well not. Him not texting the morning after your first tentative meeting isn't indicative of anything much though.

I bet he's having the same concerns about the rules of engagement that you're now having Wisey. I would bet money on the fact that the first thing Longboat Man did this morning was check his texts hoping for something from you and now he's sitting with a coffee wondering how to contact you.

Seeing as you?ve been texting pre-date, if I were you I?d send a little text, along the lines of the sort you sent previously but talking about your date. Did something happen yesterday that made you both laugh? If so, you could go back and reference that: ?I can?t stop laughing when I think about ...? that might be a good ice breaker. Once text contact has been re-established then hopefully you can carry on as before but maybe with the odd flirty text thrown in.

When you said goodbye, what did his eyes say? They really are the window to the soul. Did they say: ?you?re witty and funny and I find you attractive and would love to see you again? or did they say ?talk to the hand?? I bet it?s the former. Trust your instincts. They?ve done you pretty well so far.

One other thought, as he?s a widower, has he been dating for long? If he?s not been back on the dating scene for long he could well be feeling torn over loyalty to his wife and family and if he felt that you had a real connection these feelings could well be bubbling around more intensely than normal.

It sounds like you had a great time yesterday so bask in that for now. It?s always so much easier said than done but take the joy from yesterday: there are attractive, decent men out there who are single!, you had the balls to go on an internet date and it wasn?t a disaster, you enjoyed the company of a guy you didn?t know last week and that?s really something.

It sounds like you handled DD really well, with texting her and reassuring her. She is very lucky to have such a positive role model in you.

So what would I do?

• I?d send a text with a hook in about yesterday, preferably humour-based if possible.
• I?d look for something suitable to do on a second date and tuck that away for a spontaneous suggestion later. Maybe you would go and see him so do a bit of research for suitable dates. Did you say he?s in London? If so I can help ...
• I?d sit back and relish the fact that he didn?t make excuses after 30 minutes and run-off.
• I?d be sensitive to any turmoil he may be feeling. Let?s face it you must be one of the best qualified people to do this, and not just professionally: you are wise and kind and insightful with buckets of empathy.
• I?d be really proud of myself. You have conducted yourself with intelligence, dignity and you?re steering your own (and your DD?s) destiny to something seriously good and if Longboat Man isn?t THE one, well, it?s a first step and that?s hardest one to make and you took it. So not only do you have a big swinging dick, you've got balls the size of a house!

If you possibly can, don?t fret too much and have a lovely weekend. I?m off to the house to do the last of my packing (I hope) ...

xx

Aw thanks all. Down from outer space again.

You're right, if he'd inundated me with texts I'd have been scared.

He'd told his DD's about coming on a date - they very excited about it.

His eyes? Did not say talk to the hand. He looked as unsure of himself at the end as I was feeling. I'm very aware of his loss, and he has been upfront about it all. If he's anything like me he'll have mixed emotions but he's also wanting to move forward with his life - like me.

So thanks girls. I'll get on with my weekend and of course, if I hear anything, good or not so good, you will be the first to know!

Annie - I know, I know, at my age I should know better. Trouble was I'd had so much of the grape, that the grain seemed such a good idea! Do you think it helped that I was drinking the Bailey's out of my goldfish bowl sized wine glass and it was about half full?

Anyway, what would I do?

Well, you texted him last night saying you'd had a lovely time. So you have already made the first move and given him the signal that you're interested. He's suggested seeing you again - but hasn't arranged anything. So, I would do nothing. Absolutely nothing. He knows you like him, let him contact you.

Don't get in touch with him - you'll look too keen. Give him space.

Talk about parallel lives indeed hun; as you know my BIL is widowed, and he has met someone (the younger sister of my sister's friend), who got divorced last year. She has a son the same age as BIL's daughter. I know her vaguely (met her at a party) and she is very sweet and lovely. BIL is actually in turmoil because he's attracted to her.

He feels it's too soon; he feels that he might upset his DD if he asks her out; he wants to move on, and know he should, but feels guilty. Darling sis told BIL that she wanted him to have a new life, and that he must follow his heart wherever it took him in the future.

I told him there's no rush, but if he is attracted to this lovely girl, then he should suggest a coffee or taking the kids somewhere together. He said yes, ok. Then he said, no, I can't. Then he said, yeah, I think I will. So he phoned her last night and suggested that they meet up for Sunday lunch tomorrow in a nice family pub that has a play area for the kids. She jumped at the chance. He put phone done, felt really pleased with himself. Then got all upset.

He says that aside from all the emotions he feels about perhaps moving on, he's forgotten how to date. He doesn't know the rules any more. Bless him.

Hope he gets in touch Wisey - if he does by text, don't text back immediately - leave it at least an hour.

X

An hour? AN HOUR?? 60 WHOLE MINUTES??????

I won't text him first no. If it's going to develop into anything - friendship, romance, whatever, it won't all rest on my jumping in with both feet and scaring the pants of the poor guy.

Talking of pants tho'........

TBH, I think I will hear from him again.

Whatever he has reflected upon for himself, he didn't come across as avoidant in any way - so I'm not panicking . I think he'll be honest.

Have heard from Longboat Man. We are chatting later on phone.

Yay!

Ahem!!

i have it on good authority that Chips is definitely back.

this is not a false alarm (unlike last time )

Yay - chips is back!

Double yay - Longboat man got in touch.
X

Chips, where?

She's here, wading through the thread I think......

Evening.

Have had phone call with Longboat Man.

Hmm. Bit of catch up on the day. Then he asked if I wanted to meet again, rememberd I'd said I was planning to come up next week to find somewhere with music on with RL friend, said call me and I'll meet you, free all week.
Said he'd have liked to have seen the fireworks on tonight in my town as he'd had a nice date yesterday. I said well I want to come up before I go back to work but if my RL friend has to work, I may come up alone, ok? he said yes, of course, call me anytime you like I'm around for the next week and half before I take DS on short holiday.

So that's how we left it. I'm a bit unsure tbh. It went fine, but I'm thinking maybe I'm further down the line than he is in some ways, although when I suggested that he said he'd done most of his grieving before his DP died. having said that, he hasn't actually dated any one yet, so I think B&A is right, it might have raised all sorts of stuff. In short I think there may be a red flag thing here. And I really really don't want to get into anything that could be hurtful for anyone.

So I think i'll leave it now for a few days, get on with my holiday and then if I sort a day out with friend I'll send him a text and see if he's free.

Hmmmm

Good - he called. He remembered stuff like the fireworks, that you were planning on going up next week, said he'd had a nice date. Nice that he remembered things like this.

This is both a learning curve for both of you. You're his first date since losing his wife, he's your first since kicking PTM out.

Both of you still have wounds to lick, and are tentative.

He's interested, but this is all a bit scary for him. You are interested, but in danger of being too wary of him.

Difficult one - if you're too full on, he might back off. If you play it too casual he might think that you're not interested.

What would I do? I'd leave it a couple of days. Then I'd text him to say that you are in his area on such and such a day...would he like to meet up for lunch?
(Lunch is good - it can extend to dinner - or it can be an hour or so, and informal and a quick escape).

See what his reaction is. If he hesitates, say, "never mind, may be some other time, call me when you return from your break with kids". Then leave it up to him.

You both need to take this slowly.

And guess what? Guess what I'm doing tomorrow night? I am working! (So what, Wisey says). Yes, but I am on holiday, but my new line manager called and said that as I was going to be working in A&E, would I like to spend a night going out with the paramedics? (No, not down the pub but in a proper ambulance, with sirens and blue lights and everything). He thinks this will be good for me, so that I can observe and get a feel for things "on the front line". He said Sunday's are quite quiet, so that would be a good start, but if I'm available next Saturday I can go out with them when it's busy.

I am sooo excited. I am going to sit with the driver. I might even be able to help! Now, what shall I wear. Oh yeah, I know. One of those boiler suit things with my hair scraped back and minimum make up. And short nails. Must cut my nails....

But when they finish their shift, they all go to a greasy spoon for a fry up...me and two paramedics!

Talk about living the dream.....

I am sooo excited.

Oohh, I love a uniform! That sounds so exciting, to be on the front line like that. And what a nice manager to call you to give you a taster too.

I've been talking myself back down as well, thanks for the advice and very sensible words. You're right, I think he's def interested, he phoned dead on the time he said he would, not the actions (and it's actions that count) of someone who isn't but yeah, he's scared too, as am I really.

But I know I'm much further down the road than he is, after all, if his DP hadn't died they'd still be together whereas me and PTM would still have been in a dead relationship which was going to end anyway. I just didn't see it for that at the time we split and a HUGE part of me struggled with the rejection after all the effort I put in to making it good enough to carry on. There's an important lesson to learn from that experience isn't there? Not to invest alot of energy into a relationship that doesn't exist yet, might not go anywhere, and I might not want any way. It isn't the why's and wherefores of Longboat Man I should be working out here, it's my own which matter.

So much of the work I've done on myself has been done here Saff. In a way it's really been crucial to do this alongside my personal therapy, just get it all out there and work it through, read other posters experiences and try and help them through too. It's the first time in my entire life I've valued myself enough to do that, to really look closely at why I try so hard keep relationships going, who's needs I am prioritising and my own relationship to commitment. I've read almost all the posts on the Baggage Reclaim site, and it's made rather uncomfortable reading at times. I see myself in there, I see PTM in there - him Mr Unavailabe all through our marriage whether by taking on too much work, drinking, OW's, whatever. And I see me - waiting, waiting, waiting for him to give me the time he never seemed to have enough of. That's so sad. Actually it makes me want to cry....

So what I'm saying is I owe a huge debt of gratitude to everyone who has and still does, ride the journey with me. You don't have to, I don't pay you for your time, what you do isn't bound by professional guidelines, you don't treat me as though I'm broken and need fixing.

Thanks, just thanks.

Hi
Yes you are further down the road from him, and it's a different road. I keep thinking of my BIL (who's taking nice lady out for lunch today). When twunt left, BIL said he couldn't condone a man blowing a family apart deliberately, when his had been destroyed by cancer. I really appreciated this, but now realise that BIL and sis had a much better marriage than we did. Like you, I spent far too much time and effort and emotional energy trying to fix something that was broken. And possibly like you I kick myself for doing so. When it's so obvious upon reflection that it was futile.

It was like watering a dead plant.

So, like BIL, LBM, (Longboat Man), has different baggage, but similar to us in a way: Anger - BIL is still furious at the unjustness of it all. He told me he's sometimes furious with sis for dying, and he shouldn't feel that way. I told him sometimes I rant at her in my head for not being here too. Sadness - that someone he loved so much has gone. Loneliness, fear of the future. The responsibility of bringing up a daughter who becomes a teenager with all that that entails.

BIL did everything he could for sis, - supported her, sat up endless nights with her, demanded doctors/consultants did everything they could. In the end he lost her anyway, but at least he knows none of it was his fault, and that he did the very best he could.

And we should be the same - not blaming ourselves for watering that dead plant for too long, but realising that we did all we could to keep love going. I'm still angry at myself for giving too much, and I never will again. You're feeling the same way I imagine. And it's in both our natures to look at ourselves when things go wrong rather than the other person. So that is something we need to help each other out with.

So, yes, you're further down the line than he is - but in some ways, he may be further down the line than you. It's early days for both of you - but just try and see it for the fun it could be, not the sadness it could be.

And I owe you and others a huge debt of gratitude - stumbling across MN has been a revelation for me.

Now, do you think a light spray tan would work with the green overalls for tonight? I don't like green at all - and my roots could do with a touch - up, or as I'm wearing hair scraped back is there any point. Have trimmed nails and removed polish. And will I look very greedy if I have the full English in the morning - should I just go for a cuppa and a slice of toast? See - I'm pretending I'm going on a date - cos I can do that, pretend. The real thing horrifies me. So you're way further down the road than me, but it's the same road, with it's horrible pit holes and nasty bends....but there's going to be some great scenary along the way.

God, I'm rambling, off to make more coffee.

Wisey, at this early stage does it really matter that you are much further down the line than Longboat Man? Unless you are looking for something serious and potential settling down material I don't see that it does much. I reckon you should just go with the flow, have a break from analysing and over thinking and just enjoy the company of what seems like a very nice man. Have a laugh and some fun, some good conversation, nice walks, even nicer food and drinks out and just see what happens. Don't put him in a little box until you have really got to know him. At the moment he is just someone who is travelling alongside you in your journey, maybe just a part of that journey but who knows what will happen further down the line, eh?

Just have some fun Wisey, and some nice times, your deserve it!!!

Saffy, brilliant, just brilliant

Cross post with Saffy.

Ladies, please don't be angry with yourselves for feeling you gave too much in your relationships. Do not punish yourselves for doing what you felt you needed to do at the time. You were in survival mode, simply that, doing whatever it took to keep things afloat. You survived, you came out of it stronger, you should be very proud of yourselves!! Punishing and blaming yourselves is not an option!

Saffy, go for the full English, much lower in carbs than the slice of toast and much more fulfilling.