How red are these flags?

[OBlimey]

Just started dating someone again after some time on my own after end of a long term relationship.

Met someone a few months ago, but having a few doubts/niggles and not sure if I am being paranoid.

These are the issues...

• Divorced twice at 42, possible cheating on his part, both marriages a few years only

• Starting to talk about children on third date

• Blows hot and cold

• Hates making plans in advance but likes me to be around with little notice

• Any disagreement means silent treatment

• Caught him out in a few lies, not even big ones but there was just no need?

• Likes to big himself up? Not sure why, and appear more well to do than he is?

• Seems to like being in control if that makes sense

Other silly things but I am getting very wary!

Other than that a great guy but reading these boards I am getting jittery

My STBX did all those things within the first 3 months our relationship. Every One.

I loved it, thought I'd found the One. And I ignored the little quiet voice in my head that was saying creep, weirdo, he doesn't know me how can he love me?, etc.

It wasn't until I came on Mn that I realised this was one of those 'textbook' patterns. Below is relevant excerpt from the Loser:

"The following list is an attempt to outline the characteristics of "The Loser" and provide a manner in which women and men can identify potentially damaging relationships before they are themselves severely damaged emotionally or even physically. If your partner possesses even one of these features, there is risk in the relationship. More than three of these indicators and you are involved with "The Loser" in a very high risk relationship that will eventually create damage to you. When a high number of these features are present - it's not a probably or possibility. You will be hurt and damaged by "The Loser" if you stay in the relationship."

"2. Quick Attachment and Expression "The Loser" has very shallow emotions and connections with others. One of the things that might attract you to "The Loser" is how quickly he or she says "I Love You" or wants to marry or commit to you. Typically, in less than a few weeks of dating you'll hear that you're the love of their life, they want to be with you forever, and they want to marry you."

Here is the post wot I wrote today.

THIS is where it all leads up OBlimey.

Ok, I need to come clean.

I have just had major wobble, as MadameO will testify to.

Elsewhere we were discussing the heady beginnings of the relationship and then the descent into the madness of the abusive reality.

Her words hit hard (again no need for apologies MO, these are thoughts I have to get past) I could have written her words myself.

Now I am sat in tears, but a few moments ago, this is what I wrote:

I want to call him so badly and shout at him. I loved that man with every fibre of my being, i prayed to God that he would love me. Careful what you wish for eh? My love for him consumed me, I'd have laid down my life in an instant, without hesitation. His brilliance shone like a beacon. I had all that adoration, I wanted to be a better person, a better woman only for him. And look how he repaid that blind idiotic love. I'm howling here, howling at the stupidity, the waste, the anger at what he could have had, but chose to treat with disdain. I want to roar at him, to tell him what he had, but has now lost due to his disgusting treatment of me.

What would happen if I did call him? nothing, he'd say sorry, he'd say he didn't mean it really, and it'd be 'arush, arush' yalla yalla and it'd change nothing.

notsorted here asked how come I'm so strong. What a fucking fraud I am! I'm not strong, I'm just avoiding it all, hiding behind splutters of 'bollocks', quips, anecdotes and bravado.

I've clearly not dealt with any of this, I'm the reigning Queen of Avoidance, and am just repelling all thoughts of him, not calling him, not even for him to speak to DS. I go to the group and input on others. Input on other people's situations here and elsewhere, and while I do get some help in processing thoughts from 3rd party situations, I am not looking at what has happened to me.

So today I'm having a wobble, well actually it feels like the stabilisers fell off and it's a bit more of a crash.

I truly appreciate your support and kind words, but I'm not really deserving of them. I'm talking the talk, but it may be a while yet before I am walking the walk.

Slaps 'Don't Follow Me, I'm Lost Too' bumper sticker on own arse>

HERE IS THE THREAD - Bookmark it OBlimey, you go down this path, you'll need it.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1247062-Support-for-those-in-emotionally-abusive-relationships-2

YOU SEE OBLIMEY? 10 years it took me to see it, really see it. Enough of you know how much suffering took place prior to that.

THIS IS WHERE IGNORING YOUR INSTINCTS GETS YOU.

THIS IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE WHEN YOU GO AGAINST THE RED FLAGS.

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU THINK YOU ARE A BETTER WOMAN THAN HIS 2 PREVIOUS WIVES AND THAT HE WILL LOVE YOU BETTER AND MORE, IF ONLY YOU CAN MAKE HIM SEE HOW MUCH YOU LOVE HIM.

YOU SEE HOW I DOUBT MYSELF TO MY VERY CORE, YOU SEE HOW IT TURNS IN ON YOU?

ok thank you, am thinking and digesting x

A dear friend sent a card to me this week.

on it are a number of Oprah's favourite mantras.

here are some of them:

When people show you who they are. believe them the first time.
Doubt means DON'T. Don't move, don't answer, don't rush forward
Love doesn't hurt. Love isn't scary. It feels really GOOD.
Trust your instincts. Intuition doesn't lie.

You are right in that no relationship is perfect but I would never tolerate a tw*t to borrow a term from you, for a partner. He has got you exactly where he wants you, you don't "feel or think" that it is an abusive relationship because he is saying all the right things at the moment to make you feel good.

Does he ever say things like, "you are the only woman I have ever loved/cared about",
"I will never love another woman in the same way I have loved you".

Does he promise you much but fail to deliver?

You feel good at the moment because he is providing some sort of excitement but when that wears off (again), you will feel 10 times worse and it will only get worse and worse.

This man is not good for you. He isn't just "odd", he is toxic!

I don't know what to say, but I have read and am feeling sad, I kind of think I will be different which I know is crazy, please don't think I am a stupid cow as I am not but I do like him x

No I certainly do not think you are a stupid cow. I will not condemn you whatever action you choose but you will certainly kick yourself for being blinded by his lies.

I know you like him now but when you do manage to get him out of your life, you will despise him and be extremely bitter for it.

OB has he said any of those thins to you already?

things obviously:

telling OB how much he loves her and that he has felt some sort of special connection since the day they met?

Asking to move in?

Asking her to marry him?

Saying he wants a baby with her?

Being overly nice to all her friends and family? (then running them down to her)

OBlimey you are not a stupid cow. Of course you like him:

• You like the him that he wants you to see to reel you in
• You like the him that you want him to be

But OBlimey, you have also already met the him that will wear down, reduce and destroy you. It's all there in your first post!

Those warning signs are warning you of REAL DANGER to you.

3 weeks ago you were feeling jittery, scared and anxious. Then you split with him and changed your number. Then you met someone else. Now you are 'just friends' with a man who is also offering you marriage and babies (really?)

You admit you have low self esteem and you are a mess, but won't do therapy.

You are ignoring all the advice of everyone on here. Think about it.

On your head be it.....

And OBlimey, you are NOT too fat, you are NOT not good enough, or any of those harmful things you think about yourself.

You don't need to have a man say nice things to you for you to feel good about yourself. The only way you'll really feel good is when you believe that you are unique and wonderful just the way you are, faults and chequered history and all!

That state of mind, by the way, will keep creeps like your current love interest away from you. They don't want a woman who'll be too difficult to bend to their will.

So think about what you want to do, what makes you tick, and do some of that instead of spending time mooning over this loser. See good friends. Learn a new skill. Anything that enriches your life.

[ps: I thought I was fat and ugly when I was swept off my feet by a man who told me I was the most beautiful woman in the world. It felt good. It felt like what I needed. I was grateful the day he asked me to marry him. 12 years later I am divorcing him, and I am under special police protection because losers like that are mental. No woman should ever have to be demeaned by the man she loves; no woman should ever have to live in fear. I also realise, 12 years too late, that I am a hell of a catch, actually. And so are you. You're the only one who needs convincing about that, though.]

You are NOT a stupid cow.

If you are a stupid cow, and are standing at the edge of a relationship that will more than likely do you harm, and are thinking about what to do next, taking advice and considering your future, what the hell does that say about me?

I didn't have anyone to tell me about signs, red flags, warnings etc, and tbh, by the time I had any inkling of wierdness, I probably would have thought I knew better, and ignored them anyway.

Look where I am today. 43, single mum, in bits on occasion and may never ever have another relationship again. certainly no kids. DS is an only child. I wasted all that time, and it has repercussions on my own DS. I could have been in a decent relationship, had kids earlier, known my lovely DH would have been there for me so I could manage to have more than one child.

So AM I a stupid cow?

OK so I do have my moments of feeling utterly idiotic, but that passes, with a lot of help and support from people here.

No, I'm not a stupid cow. None of us here are stupid cows. We fell for an elaborate mirage, we got conned, we fell in love with the idea of love itself. he had an agenda, we didn't think that possible.

Stop and think.

What a waste of time!! Nothing anyone says on here is going to make you change your mind... all your saying is 'but i like him' god you need your head testing woman.

Good luck cause your gonna need it.

Thanks to you all

Yes he has said I am special, wants to marry and have a child with me

And I suppose that makes me feel special because I like him and I think he is committed?

But equally scared that I will end up years down the line more of a mess if he that much of a textbook, which TBH he may not be?

Off to bed, tired of thinking but really really appreciate your posts, sometimes I laugh and am flippant because it all seems so unreal that he could be a nutjob loser but my friends think that which is why I posted originally.

OB - sweetheart this is classic.

Like I said in my original post you need to run, run like fuck, as far as you can. To reclaim my phrase, get him a ticket to the far side of fuck - one way

"if I pull away he comes running, but when I am happy and want to see him and think everything is fine he backs off"

Your words. Does that sound like someone who will be good for your self-esteem? Your mental health?

Do you have any friends or family you trust enough to talk this through with and show them this thread?

What you need is to work on your self-esteem, then to find a nice bloke who means what he says and doesn't play games or blow hot and cold (there are lots of them out there!)

But equally scared that I will end up years down the line more of a mess if he that much of a textbook, which TBH he may not be?

Listen to your fear!

Yes he has said I am special, wants to marry and have a child with me

And how long have you known each other?

Did he say this after you got back together for the fourth time, ie in the last 3 weeks?

run for the hills!!!

"He says I am special"

Quick copy-and-paste from the document someone linked to earlier:
""The Loser" has very shallow emotions and connections with others. One of the things that might attract you to "The Loser" is how quickly he or she says "I Love You" or wants to marry or commit to you. Typically, in less than a few weeks of dating you'll hear that you're the love of their life, they want to be with you forever, and they want to marry you. You'll receive gifts, a variety of promises, and be showered with their attention and nice gestures. This is the "honeymoon phase" - where they catch you and convince you that they are the best thing that ever happened to you. Remember the business saying "If it's too good to be true it probably is (too good to be true)!" You may be so overwhelmed by this display of instant attraction, instant commitment, and instant planning for the future that you'll miss the major point - it doesn't make sense!! Normal, healthy individuals require a long process to develop a relationship because there is so much at stake. Healthy individuals will wait for a lot of information before offering a commitment - not three weeks. It's true that we can become infatuated with others quickly - but not make such unrealistic promises and have the future planned after three dates. The rapid warm-up is always a sign of shallow emotions which later cause "The Loser" to detach from you as quickly as they committed. "The Loser" typically wants to move in with you or marry you in less than four weeks or very early in the relationship."

Your friends think he is a loser too? And they have met him in real life....well.

Words, words, all words. He doesn't think you are special. he doesn't treat you as if he loves you and wants to marry you - he's treating you like a game! Anyone can say they love you - but doing it, living it is very different. Keep posting here, don't feel you have to hide if it goes wrong (it's only the internet!) but MN will support you.

Don't feel too ashamed to post back OB. Some of us have been there and will not judge you.

Oh no!!
Just noticed this from OP's original post - one of the possible red flags.

Starting to talk about children on third date

OBlimey I know that it's really hard to just be told stuff and take it in when you haven't directly experienced it yourself, but this guy really is going to make you so unhappy. He is a classic emotional abuser.

I keep thinking that there is no point in responding in this thread anymore. But my conscience (sp?) will just not let this rest.

Why has this thread been so active?...OBlimey, it is because so many women have seen this bloke in action first hand. We aren't just saying this because we want to kill your fun. We have said what we have said because we want to save you from suffereing.

Please remember, however you feel about him, that YOU asked for advice. At least you will be on alert for total twattish behaviour-but in the long run this will not save you.

Please don't be flippant. You could be in A LOT of trouble here. The fact that you can't see it even now is very worrying. And the reason we know, is because, we KNOW.