You wait, don't you, for the man to make the first move?

[IngridBergmann]

If there is a first move going to be made, that is...!

And I really don't know. how do you know? No obvious moves have been made at all.

It feels like we are very close friends and we always laugh a lot and talk a lot, but then, this is someone who has a multitude of friends and family and is very socially easy going.

He could be like this with everyone. I don't know if he is just being friendly, or actually does like me but is really, really shy of doing anything about it.

We always hug when we say goodbye and there is a kiss on the cheek but nothing else yet and it's been a few weeks.

He did offer to lend me his spirit level and so I asked if he had a big one, then we both laughed and he said 'Oh yes, enORmous!'

See I could have just kissed him right then and there but I was too scared. If he was shocked it would be awful so I couldn't risk it.

What do you DO? Do you just wait? I think I might go mad. But I will be sensible.

He's just being friendly, isn't he.

I don't know what I really want, tbh and I appreciate your posts because you seem to know where I'm coming from. I want to listen to your advice.

It's just that even if I do ask him, there's no guarantee that a mutual and actual relationship would happen, is there? At least at the moment I have a nice simmery thing going on in my head, frustrating and painful as it is - the possibility is there until proven otherwise.

And if it turns out he isn't up for it at all, then I've lost that, and gained nothing. That's what scares me. I can at least kid myself he might like me at the moment.

I've never been good at waiting before and I've always asked the man first. Before she died, my friend told me that in order to get the sort of relationship you want, you have to wait for the man to chase you and not do all the work. She said find someone who really values you enough to try and win you. Then you know they really like you.

So I'm trying to do it right, for the first time ever. I'm not sure if it makes sense or not. But I'm so, so sick of the one who asks and gets knocked back or taken advantage of; I want to be normal or if he exists, to have found the only man in the universe who doesn't think a girl is weird if she asks him out.

Can't you rope a friend in - get her to chat to him and suggest that you two would make a really great couple and see what his response is....then report back to you , of course.

That is a wicked idea Nancy. Thankyou...I have told one of the other mums and she was there the other day, sort of winking at me I wonder if she will say anything. I won't ask her to - same reason I shan't ask him myself, I would be gutted if the answer was no. Plus I hope he's capable of making up hs own mind without being nudged by third party envoys! But maybe he isn't.

I was trying to imagine whether he would do the same things with the other friends he has, and I can't imagine him giving them a kiss on the cheek and a big hug. I just can't picture it though he seems very shy in public so maybe he would at home.

All this speculation is driving me mad so I need to stop it and just get on with my life, I think.

I don't really have any advice, Ingrid, other than that I don't think all this emotion is so much about him at all. You're scared of losing your fantasy relationship to a reality that you can't control ('there's no guarantee') but seriously: what would be so catastrophic about that? You wouldn't have lost anything, except a fantasy.

Unless it's that you're scared of giving up a bit of control to make space for a relationship with another person. And it's a real bind, in that if you take the initiative in a sense you're still doing it from a place of trying to control things. As though if you've asked him, then it's not real, as (my worrying would go in your place) either he's doing it just to placate me, or else he's going to say no. And either way, I don't get what I really want, which is something about moving from being in total (but painful and empty) control to being able to accept someone else into my life, with all the risks that brings.

I can't advise you on what you should do or not do in terms of letting this man (who sounds lovely, btw) know you like him. All I can suggest is maybe that you think a bit about where your fears are coming from. Did you have to take care of a fragile or narcissistic parent when you were smaller, and have to engineer love and affection for yourself? Is there something else in your past that makes you wary of allowing other people close enough to you to give you affection, such that you'd consider a reliable but empty imaginary relationship over a mutual but unpredictable one?

I used to fall wildly in love with people in a way that made it impossible to relate to who they actually were, as my projections onto them got in the way too much. I think for me it was a way of staying safe, as I assumed at some unconscious level that if I got too close I'd just get manipulated or rejected. That was all bound up in the way my parents were when I was little. For me, it took a fair chunk of therapy, and then a long period of patient wooing by someone who saw past all that prickliness before I unwound enough to consider loving someone who could love me back. I still get a bit jittery sometimes.

Sorry this is a bit long. Obviously I don't know you IRL, so am speculating, but just wanted to share in case any of that rings any bells for you.

God, it really does. I've just come back to MN after looking at a load of kitchen stuff on ebay, and haveto go out in a minute but yes, you are bloody right and I will come back to this later and think it through.

Thankyou.

OTheHugeManatee is a very wise woman.

You are inventing a full on relationship with this man OP, before you've even kissed. Real relationships progress from concrete step to concrete step. It's not love yet, just fantasy.

I did this for YEARS and it always ends in heartbreak.

Please stop fantasising and get involved with what is actually happening. The reality is that you get on with each other as friends. You have no idea at this stage whether that will translate into coupledom. The only way to find out is to begin at the beginning. Then have some dates and find out if there is something able to grow between you. That sort of knowledge happens over months usually and one conversation is not going to create or ruin a relationship.

Stop playing games, dropping hints and leaving coded messages. Ask him round for coffee. If he is interested, he will come. If not, he will be too busy. Either way, you'll stop wasting your energy dreaming.

One day, maybe soon, a man will fall for you and want to be with you. And you'll know! Good luck.

I know it's likely to end in heartbreak because I'm getting all wound up within my own brain and I'm trying to second guess what's going on with him all the time.

He has come for coffee, and he's done other things like that but I still don't know if it means he likes me in a romantic way. Sometimes he is too busy; other times he seems to have all the time in the world for me/us.

I just don't get how asking him to have coffee is going to help, because we've already done that.

I do get, though, that I'm terrified so I'm trying to work it all out before it's even begun. I'm very anxious so I want it over with and if that means having a broken heart and no relationship then that's masses easier than living with this fear and nervousness for weeks on end. iyswim. I'm freaked out by the thought of a loss of control, sharing my commtiments and days and thoughts with another person whom I cannot control. I've never done it before. And yes I did have to 'engineer' affection as a child, there was never enough and I was always desperate for love and touch and intimacy, but it was not there. So I probably do come across as desperate and thus I have always been rejected, and always will be, and I don't know the way out of the trap. I can't stop needing someone to love me.

I just don't know how to get it without pretending I don't need it, as that';s what people always say, you have not to act desperate. But I am desperate. That's the problem.

And yes he IS really beautiful and lovely, and I just feel like a joke when I look at myself even considering that he might like someone like me.
It's safer to assume he won't, muck it all up, and stay on my own without any human touch or warmth.

Everyone needs love. There's nothing shameful about that. But there's no 'it' that you can 'get over with', unless you mean getting the possibility of an intimate relationship over with by sabotaging it.

You probably don't want to hear this, but while I'm less anxious these days, the nervousness and fear of rejection hasn't gone away. I don't know if it ever will. I've just got better at catching myself getting jittery, and dragging myself out of my fears and back to the relationship that's in front of me.

If you want a loving relationship rather than a fantasy, you're probably going to have to get used to living with your fears rather than escaping into daydreams. But just because you're scared of something, doesn't mean it always has to come true. Breaking the fantasy-relationship habit is really hard, and living with fears that go right back into childhood can feel agonising to start with. But it is doable, and I reckon it's worth it.

You can either ask him or not. If you ask him and he likes you too - great. If he doesn't then you will still have a friendship after any initial awkwardness has gone.

If you don't ask him then you could miss out on the love of your life.

If he has been round for coffee and hasn't asked you on a date, either he doesn't see you that way or he is even more scared than you. But if he's that scared, maybe he's not right for you.

I know this isn't what you want to hear and I'm sorry about that.

I think you are either going to have to ask him out or let him go. In fact, let him go anyway. Your entire happiness does not depend on this man. And it's the pressure of that scenario that might be giving him pause for thought.

Once you let him go, you might find that he approaches you.

Yes, I will let him go. You're right. I'm not going to send any more texts after we've spent time together, because he often doesn't reply.

So I guess that isn't how he does things or he finds it all too much.

I won't send any more cryptic messages either, don't worry.

He came for coffee but we had all of the kids with us. I noticed he doesn't like anyone to see him hug me in public, because he initiates it every time in private but looks worried if anyone is watching.

Maybe coffee alone would swing it either way.

Manatee (I love your name) that's just it, getting it over with means sabotaging it by being a complete eejit. That's what it means and I am so scared of the reality of being with someone because I'm convinced no one in their right mind could possibly love me so it's just terrifying waiting for the inevitable rejection.

It's been salutary reading your posts and really useful...I've thought about it all afternoon and it's hurt but it's released something in me, making me feel like he isn't the point of all this, it's about just, well, what's happening (or not) is normal. It's my reaction to it that isn't, and that's a false fear, and could possibly be got over.

Need to be really brave though.! Meanwhile I'll leave him be. It isn't like I'm not busy myself. I doubt he will initiate contact again but I will see him in passing so will try the coffee thing next week, maybe.

thanks, all of you. This has really helped.

Is he definitely single?

Ingrid I spent years in that particular vicious circle. I decided eventually to be completely upfront after a lot of pain. After a couple of 'practice' relationships I then found my DP. There was no doubt that we were mutually interested and I think that was (is) my first healthy relationship!

I'm absolutely certain that you will find that too. It's natural when it happens and the frantic feeling of 'will he won't he?' just isn't there. Maybe this one isn't quite right for you. Because for now at least, it all feels confusing, which isn't quite it.

I hope you are spared the pain I went through and find your dp sooner rather than later .

Ingrid, your post really resonates with me - I am told that once we love ourselves then people naturally gravitate to us, but it's easier said than done (for me anyway!)

Harder still to reverse years of ingrained thinking - even if you think you have proof that you cannot be truly loved because of past rejection doesn't mean that it's true.

It breaks my heart to think anyone would believe themselves to be unworthy of love...for god's sake woman, you can plaster walls !!

Would you listen to me, honestly I've no business giving anyone advice

blinder, I know you were addressing Ingrid, but thank you! I never knew that the feeling of "will he won't he" wasn't a natural part of any relationship....

That's an eye opener for me!

apologies for butting in.....

Msshapelybottom I know! I laboured under that illusion for years. Always had to work at love with dad you see. Thought it was normal! Nope !

MsShapely, please don't apologise...the more people get help from this thread the better and it is nice to know I'm not the only one in a state..!

FFF, yes, definitely, definitely single. We have a lot of mutual friends so they would know if he was seeing anyone.

Blinder, thankyou for your nice wishes, and for explaining your progress to where you are now. By being completely upfront do you mean saying to someone that you really like them? I suppose I thought that might scare off people...well, I used to do it and it did scare them off Or maybe I just wasn't that love/likeable? Or they weren't interested in me, which is fair enough. Or it took them by surprise.
I don't know how to do it.
I could say to him 'I really like you, I'm interested in a relationship with you' but then, if it was clear both ways would it not be already happening? Something is holding him back, but whether that's shyness, not liking me that way, or just sensible caution - as we only recently got to know each other a bit - as well as his being really busy with work and his own kids. He probably doesn't have time, and I don't really either. Only occasionally could I really justify going anywhere with him or doing stuff not relevant to my own life and family. We'd have to integrate and that's a big ask for someone with kids, that goes both ways really.

I'm hormonal atm and I think that's what brought it into such sharp focus this weekend - it seemed like everything rested on him, on this, and actually, it's not like tat all the time. Yes I fancy him badly, yes he is brilliant, and maybe likes me too, but there are other things that count, as well, and I'm just in a state of silly overdramatic fantasy these last few days. I think that will pass.

I don't know if it's about him not being right for me, but me not being right for anyone yet. Still insecure and worried about it all.
I would have episodes of this ridiculous stuff and that would put most people off I think!

Hang on a minute. Go back a bit. I've been vicariously following this thread and I dont understand this part.

"I noticed he doesn't like anyone to see him hug me in public, because he initiates it every time in private but looks worried if anyone is watching."

What are you doing when all this hugging is going on that he is initiating?

Erm, hugging him back! Not sure what you mean ABD, thoguh I would welcome some male insight. He basically grabs me for a hug and kisses my cheek every time we say goodbye, but when I went to say goodbye in public he looked a bit scared. There were other people nearby who would have seen.

Btw, I got a text!!!! Just now. He's been out for the evening with a friend (male) and he texted to say thanks for the eggs and he hoped I had a good weekend.

He was v tired, I sent a message back just saying I was still awake (on ebay!) and sweet dreams.

And so it goes on.

Oh and he did do the hug/kiss thing, in public, just looked hesitant.

I'm just happy that he sent a text.

Oh FGS!

Its as plain as the nose on your face that he wants to kiss you properly. Next time he does that hugging thing just grab hold him and kiss him properly back. Do it in private of course.

He is not sure because its you sending all sorts of mixed signals. You said it yourself in your last few posts.

Really? really??? Oh Christ.
Maybe i am. I don't know. I'm just shoite at all this.

Okay...next time I'm alone with him I will make a gentle move. I'm thinking more holding his hand than a snog, that's quite a definite signal isn't it, without the fear.

I'm not nervous any more, just very excited. (hoping you are right)

I don't think men are bad at reading signals they just know that if they get it wrong they get blasted for being abusive/sexist/narcissistic/EA etc etc

That is true. He said the other day that if he had mentioned my awful parking skills he'd have been called a chauvinist. I wouldn't have said that. But he is aware of these limitations to what's Ok and I can prob be quite scary.

I think he probably wouldn't have texted at 10pm if he didn't feel close enough to me; he knows I normally kip at 9. I think it's a good sign, also he can't have been put off by the text about how lovely he is. Shan't see him till Thursday now and I shan't text again either unless he does. But I am very close to saying something or doing something.

It won't be long either way. I'll wake you up when something happens