You wait, don't you, for the man to make the first move?

[IngridBergmann]

If there is a first move going to be made, that is...!

And I really don't know. how do you know? No obvious moves have been made at all.

It feels like we are very close friends and we always laugh a lot and talk a lot, but then, this is someone who has a multitude of friends and family and is very socially easy going.

He could be like this with everyone. I don't know if he is just being friendly, or actually does like me but is really, really shy of doing anything about it.

We always hug when we say goodbye and there is a kiss on the cheek but nothing else yet and it's been a few weeks.

He did offer to lend me his spirit level and so I asked if he had a big one, then we both laughed and he said 'Oh yes, enORmous!'

See I could have just kissed him right then and there but I was too scared. If he was shocked it would be awful so I couldn't risk it.

What do you DO? Do you just wait? I think I might go mad. But I will be sensible.

He's just being friendly, isn't he.

I've read this whole thead and I'm [eek]. Ingrid, you need to stop chasing boys! For every contact he made with you, you made like 16billion more.

Read The Rules. Read Why Men Love Bitches.

If I were going to give you a plan of action, that might not help you get this bloke but would help you generally (and maybe get you a different bloke), I'd say:

1. Read Why Men Love Bitches.

1. Sort out your self-confidence - believe you're worthy of male attention! you don't, at the moment, you're FAR too "nice". Let's ignore the poetic "It feels so good to know you're around the corner" text because... Well, let's just ignore it. But even after that, when he called you, you were all, "I'm sorry I texted that! I didn't mean it! Ignore it!", making you look ruled by your emotions to an unattractive, loose-cannon level.

1. Stop accepting every single last-minute, lame, "Come for coffee with all the other mums" invitation. Look busy and like you have you own life going on, it's very attractive. Plus the coffee dates are making you think there is something more between you than there currently is.

1. Make him work for some of your time. NEVER say to ANYONE that it's 11.30pm but they can come round. WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?! I'm so glad he didn't come. You have a full life, you have kids... At 11.30pm you should be sleeping, or in a lovely bubble bath, or something. Een convenience shops close at 11pm, for heaven's sake!

1. Start doing Speed Dating, or Online Dating, or SOMETHING to remind you that the world is FULL of MEN. Tell this one about it, if you like. Not in a confessional "OMG do you think anyone'll like me?" way, or a trying-to-inspire-jealousy way, but in a "I'm getting on with my life and I'm positive and optmistic and it's just for fun and you never know" kind of way.

1. Stop offering to help him. Let him help you. No, you shouldn't be helpng him do his kitchen -- stop! He's a man, he can do it. You deserve dinners and flowers and sweet texts and calls, not helping a perfectly fit and healthy adult male do his kitchen up.

1. Ignore the dating advice on MN. :) It's awful. You'll get told to chase him and text him and "it's the noughties" a million times. I'll post this and someone feministy will say that men and women are exactly the same and she painted "I LOVE YOU" onto the side of the Humbar Bridge the night she met her DP and they're now happy as anything, 250 years on... But it's still better the other way round. If you'd been a bit less concerned with this man, and turned down his coffee invites a few times and focussed on your life, he might jhave been intrigued enough to ask you out.

1. Do beauty treatments. They'll boost your confidence.

1. And listen to Beautiful, she is very wise

thanks, Beautlful for typing all that out! I don't quite know how to respond. I'll take it one at a time I think.

1. I don't want to be a bitch, or read about how to be one, or try and manipulate him, though I admit the book might contain useful information! It just scares me a bit with a title like that.

1. Maybe it did make me look ruled by my emotions in an unattractive manner. I don't know...are emotions such a bad thing anyway?

Once we had spoken, I was able to contain my emotions in the appropriate manner and not let them go mad, because I knew he wasn't interested. So I don't think he need worry.

1. I didn't go for coffee on Friday though he did invite me to. I was busy so I said I couldn't. But I get what you mean about being busy at other times, too. I shan't fabricate stuff but I won't cancel everything on his account, either.

1. I said did he want to come round because I was concerned about him and didn't know if he might want to talk. He goes to bed late. I couldn't sleep anyway. But point taken. Now I know the truth about his feelings I am once more able to sleep when I should be sleeping

1. I don't want to do speed dating or online dating. I don't want to date anyone really, I just want to make friends with lovely people I meet by accident, not on purpose, and then if something happens it happens. But I do understand that I need to remind myself that there are plenty more men out there! Thankyou.

1. It would be lovely to get flowers occasionally and all that. the kitchen thing is mutual. He's helping me, I'm helping him...it's Ok. I enjoy it, I'm not a sit-back and let the man do the work girl, I like working and I'm quite good at it, so I'm not going to pretend it isn't my thing. It's the only thing that makes me want to get up in the morning tbh!

1. Perhaps if I had not been so intrigued by him he might have been intrigued with me. But that wouldn't have been honest - I was interested in him and I wanted to communicate so I did, and tbh if I'd held back on purpose he would never have liked the real me when he got to know me, anyway.

It's what I do - I'm thinking about someone so I want to send a nice text. He doesn't do that, fair enough, it probably irritated the feck out of him, but at least he knows it's what I'm like and can base his interest (or lack of, clearly!) on the real me. PLUS I'm not now left wondering, 'if I'd texted him when I felt like it, maybe he would have liked me!'...iyswim. I was true to what I felt and that's why I feel roughly OK (given the last 48 hours were a bit here and there). I can hold my head up and say I acted instinctively. I wasn't faking anything. and maybe one day someone will like the way I am.

1. Really!!?! I haven't ever had one so maybe I should try. They'd have a right job on their hands though

Hope this doesn't sound defensive- well, it is a bit, I suppose. But the point wasn't to get a man as such. just how to handle this one, because he was so nice. I hope that makes sense.

You sound like a lovely person and you should just carry on being yourself, in my opinion.

Out of you and Beautiful, I know who I would rather go for a drink with if I was a man...

I think Beautiful is right actually. I honestly do.

Thanks, Flicka...I'm sure she's great! But it's just not my style though she said some helpful things too.

Scarlett - what bit do you mean?

I think ideally you should be a bit of yourself and add a bit of what Beautiful suggests.

You might meet a man as a friend, but you might not. You might come over as too much of a mate too.

You need to learn to flirt and have a mysterious allure- which makes them want to know a bit more.

It doesn't need to be totally contrived- just try to keep more back.

Also, you have to learn that like hound dogs, men love to chase! I don't know why- but it's true. It's just a fact oflife that some women ( me included) think that by being all friendly and "nice" men will llike us- whereas in truth they are attracted to women who pose a bit of a challenge.

And you also need to remember that even the shyest man ever will ask a woman for a date if he is really keen.

If I had waited 24 years ago, I doubt DH and I would be about to celebrate our 23rd wedding anniversary this weekend! Daft bloke could never tell when anyone was interested in him.

Hi Ingrid,

You sound lovely, but my experience (like Beautiful's) is that most men (and indeed most people) are put off by excessive keenness at this initial getting-to-know-each-other stage. Unnecessary affectionate texts fall into this category, I'm afraid.

I'm not suggesting at all that you should be a bitch (and I don't think Beautiful is suggesting that either!), just that you should be friendly and cheerful with him but leave some space for him to decide whether he fancies you or not, in his own time. And make sure he is made subtly aware that you have a fantastic and interesting life in your own right :)

I think that "The Rules" is really outdated, and TBH not very helpful. There's no way I'd want to get engaged to someone after a year, for example. Have never read the Bitch book but I completely agree - you shouldn't have to be a "bitch", you should just be yourself and if someone comes along who is nice and who likes you for who you are, that's fantastic.

Yes you shouldn't be all over a man, you shouldn't chase him, and you should recognise when you're doing all the fussing and he isn't - which you seem to have done. This is good :) but you shouldn't play games or pretend to be someone that you're not, either. It's counter-intuitive - if you pretend to be someone else and a man falls in love with you, they're not in love with you, just the pretend you. So later on in the relationship when you relax and start being yourself it causes friction.

I think the relationship advice on MN is pretty sound, actually. I've quite often thought "What would MN say?" and it later turned out to be right even if I ignored it at the time!

Pandemoanium- I think your experience is the one that breaks the Rule!

You aside, it's not really a case of does the man know the woman in interested- its more a case of is HE interested- and what will HE do about it!

I do doubt if on Dadsnet men are agonising over whether a woman likes them- they just pluck up the courage to ask for a date.

IME I was always too keen. When I met DH I was quite keeen and we fell into a long term long distance relationship. I got fed up and spread my wings which menat he saw less of me and I saw other men for a while.

DH got worried, chased and proposed. That was 27 years ago.

Well, my experience is like Panda's, and reckon there are lots of men like her and my DHs, tbh. And they're nice - sweetly oblivious, and worth the effort of asking. People in general are too complex for there to be A Rule.

Ingrid I think she has it spot on in the sense that men like a bit of a chase. I may be unpopular on here for giving you this advice and i'm NOT suggesting you play games. But men like to reach up to a woman as they like to feel like you were a conquest they achieved rather that fell into their lap.

Men are by nature a bit competative about this kind of thing, so are some women. Don't always be the nurturer, be the princess for once. :)

Oh, Ingrid, I feel your pain. I have no words of wisdom because I would be exactly the same as you. I think the difficulty here is you really value his friendship and it's a lot to lose. (I bet he doesn't hug his other DIY friends though!)

Find someone else to practice on. I've been single a while and I have met several people - just to practice as it were - and I am getting more at ease in those situations. I'm learning to flirt again and it leads to be a bit of confidence in potential dating situations. I had lunch with a complete stranger today and he thinks I'm charming. Who would have thought it, eh? (By the way, I'm no oil painting, pushing 50 and still got 3 stone to lose!)

Good luck with whatever you do - I do agree with the posters that say men are awful at picking up signals though.

You sound really lovely, Ingrid.

I hate The Rules and that Bitches book. I speak as one who tried out all the advice and snared myself a fine catch of abusive bastards. Which, I guess, is what you deserve if you treat men as some variety of clockwork toy to be wound up at regular intervals

Thankyou very much for all the posts, I've been reading and reading and thinking and lying awake thinking! and I think actually there's a lot of wisdom in what you're all writing (Beautlful included).

I've always been a bit needy of love, since not having a great deal of it as a child - well, from the person that mattered, ie my mother, who was very damaged and actually told me she didn't feel anything for me till I was about 19. She tries hard now and we are close in a way but it's a bit late - something in me is desperate for someone to actually love me, not just try to or pretend to iyswim.

So I always was a bit too keen and very desperate which would explain why people were put off - the only people it didn't put off were one lovely boyfriend when I was 18-21 (but I could never accept his love, sadly) and then a married man much later, who had his own issues and reasons why I was just about acceptable.

I've learned to tone it down a lot but I think I still get too needy and carried away and instead of sitting on that, distracting myself etc I just feel like I'm going to explode, so I send these texts and so on to release the pressure. It's not even about him needing them though I told myself it was. It was for me.
I can definitely see how that's unattractive, though I'm not capable of acting like i don't care, pretending to be busy etc, I'm a crap liar and to a degree I need to be the person I am complete with desperate need to text

But on an everyday level I cope, just I cope by avoiding being with anyone and suppressing the need for love.
It's like constantly wrestling with a demon and having friends (I do have a lot of casual friends, other parents etc but no one close) is just not enough, I'd rather not go out with friends, socialise etc as to me it's painful. It doesn't bring what I need. So to anyone who isn't close to me I appear normal but reclusive, and anyone who is sees how very desperate I am for human interaction. I just can't handle it in the normal way.

This feels very selfish and navel-gazing, and sorry to bring it to the thread, but i think it might explain why I behave like I do. And it seems like while I still need this love, I'll never get it because needing it turns people right off.

That was a very brave post, Ingrid. I can't believe your mother said that to you... Even if she was damaged enough for it to be true, how dare she put that weight on your shoulders!!!!!

You know you have someone to love now.. Being a mother, a good mother like you are, is the best way in the world to give and receive love, to trust and believe in other people, and ultimately, in yourself.

You are young and you have time to pick up hobbies, meet friends, find love.. The whole works.

I think you might find people who can help you work through your feelings on your childhood right here on this board.. And, would you consider counselling??

Thanks Mamsnet - well, I've had counselling for about a year and it was brilliant. It only finished recently and I think it changed the way I am, as before I would have been far more dependant on this man's approval and so on and now I can almost take it on the chin, though it made me really sad for a day or two. So it definitely helped.

I think I could use some more though!! You're right about being a mother and all that, it does make you grow up to some extent but having someone put energy into you instead of you giving it out all the time is really important I think, which isn't something I can lean on the children for.

Strangely though just having this brilliant friend in him is an education, it's as though he is giving me a lot of what I wanted anyway iyswim...the intimacy of our lovely conversations over cups of tea and coffee, him teasing me about stuff, the children all mucking about together...and sharing tradesmen it's kind of what I wanted all along, though it hasn't the added thing of sex or kissing or whatever - which might in ts own way be a good thing. A bit like he said about our houses...he owns his, I just rent, and he said it's better renting as you get all the benefit of living there with none of the responsibility.

I can almost liken that to our relationship (friendship, I mean, not 'relationship' as in love). I get all the nice bits of him (well most of them) and no hassle or heartache, if I just get a bit of a grip. It's learning to be happy with that isn't it? Without the need for a diamond ring or even a declaration of love...just being happy with whoever you have in your life.

Ingrid that is a wonderful piece of self-awareness. I struggled with exactly those feelings for years (my dad not mother but that's the only difference!) Counselling really helped me and I went on to become a counsellor myself. My relationship now is about love not need and although nothing is ever perfect, it is 'right' iyswim.

Well done on busting this neediness which you are right, does keep love away. Once you accept that it's OK to have needs you stop judging and suppressing it. Then you can be upfront with others and it doesn't seem so powerful and out of control. If you do want to try counselling google BACP to find a qualified therapist.

Wishing you all the love you need .

Oops cross posted! Will catch up!

Well that's great for a friendship but you are still deserving of a loving partnership if that's your choice in life. But with someone who wants that too!

I think that BEAUTIFUL is completely bang on.

I'm sorry for what your mother said to you - that's awful and does go a long way to explaining why you come across as so needy and desperate.

I do think you're rather pinning your hopes on this man; don't get me wrong, he sounds nice but from the way you speak about him, I wouldn't be at all surprised if your next post described how he walked across the local river.

Nice as he might be, he is only a bloke. There really ARE plenty of fish in the sea. Don't get so bogged down in gazing wistfully after him that you ignore the rest.

Oh and FWIW, I think he thoroughly enjoys knowing that you're sighing and mooning over him. If you've got ANY chance at all, it will be when you've withdrawn a bit - genuine withdrawal, rather than in a "It Hurts Too Much To See You" way - and are getting on with your life.

"Walked across the local river" = walking on water, Jesus-like. Not across the bridge.

Oh Ingrid, you sound like a younger me. But nicer! I spent most of my 20s and 30s needing that love from a man to validate myself, and ironically making myself even more vulnerable when they then inevitably went off with the 'bitch' instead. Or going out with a gay man for years, but that's another story.

The love that's lasted, and the one that's given me my wonderful son, just crept up on me and, perhaps significantly, was where he did a bit of chasing. Maybe because I was with someone else when we first met, so I couldn't throw myself into it in the early days, only once I'd finished with the ex. Who was highly unsuitable, and made me seethe with frustration, but I'd convinced myself that was my fault for being intolerant and horrible. Anyway. Another story!

You sound utterly gorgeous, and this man's a fool. In fact, I'm wondering if he might be a bit of a cad. Knowing what was doing when reeling you in, knowing that you fancy him now, hinting at going out, keeping you dangling on... Could be wrong.