Can a man have a temper without it being 'abuse'?

[Polaris]

Can a man have a bad temper without his temper being abusive?

My DH has one. I suppose it is abusive because it's only ever aimed at me. But, he's not manipulative or controlling, so it's just a temper then, isn't it?

I bet your head is swimming!

Whilst I'm inclined to say you can observe & analyse just as well from a position of strength and safety, I do understand your need to evaluate what's going on and let it sink in. It might be helpful to post things here, if you feel up to it. Negative patterns of speech & behaviour can become so ingrained that we don't notice them in our own families (which is how this stuff gets passed along the generations.)

You have a lot of moral courage, Polaris :)

Of course you need to digest it a bit. It took me months and months to accept how bad my situation was. Watch and keep a record.

Just a word of warning - you might find yourself like a crab in a pot of cold water that doesn't notice as it gradually warms up, ie. you can normalize certain behaviours so that you don't realize they're getting further and further past acceptable limits. You need to keep a sense of what is normal and what isn't, and that is very, very difficult. Mumsnet provides some bracing insights, but finding someone to confide in in RL is a huge help too.

I'm delighted that you're going to read the Bancroft book. You might want to be careful about leaving it lying around.

Hi Polaris

Have been following your thread and just wanted to make a suggestion.

Keep a diary of his behaviour.

I know, from experience, how easy it is to 'forget' the awfulness of their behaviour and to rub out the insults and feelings of humiliation when you are going through a 'good patch'. You are so relieved that things are 'nice' that you allow yourself to think 'maybe this time, he won't do it again'. And then he does and you wonder why you didn't leave the last time.

Keep a diary. They when you are ready to make some serious decisions, you will have a tangible reminder as to why you are uprooting your DCs and going through the trauma of breaking up.

And if nothing else, you can leave it for him when you are gone

I'll try not to write a book here because this topic is about you. But it might help to hear that my ex-h was another person who managed to be difficult in a way that seemed not quite dramatic enough to warrant the breaking up of our family. He was also a fairly popular bloke outside the home and rarely showed himself up as the arsehole he so often was was within it. However, over the years of moodiness, ridiculous scenes and general attention seeking nonsense, it occurred to me that actually, I was assisting him in behaving like an sulky child. Our own two dcs being far more mature than him at 6 and 5 (which was when we left him).

My own mother lived in Ireland and was, in any case, someone who did not interfere with my decisions but MIL was another one who couldn't believe ex-h's behaviour warranted the end of our marriage. Not surprisingly, she'd been unhappily married for umpteen years and wanted everyone else to suffer for it. She put considerable pressure on me to give ex-h "just one more chance" and when I remained obdurate about finally leaving him she stopped all communication with me. I've not pined, it has to be said, for the lack of speaking to her!

But when I look back, the catalyst for leaving him was not one huge violent scene but by an accumulation of individual,relatively minor unpleasantnesses that added up to my loss of love - and more importantly - any respect for him. He was another brooder over perceived slights and had the memory of an elephant for pointless details. Thus he could always rake up some occasion that I had "ruined" for him and I rarely had any defence given that this would be the first I'd heard of my offence. He specialised in wearying, circular arguments that would leave me doubting my own sanity yet, in reality, it was his behaviour that was peculiar.

Now nobody comes out of a marriage better off and sure, things will be less "comfy" from a purely materialist basis but actually, you cease to care since money cannot buy peace of mind. It was years and years ago but I still recall, in detail, the first night after we'd left the ex-h and how joyful it was in our rundown, rented cottage. We had a gloriously "junky" takeaway in front of a roaring fire and watched television without someone keeping up a sarcastic commentary or sulking. Then me,the dcs and the dog all piled into my bed - accompanied by the radio, the newspaper and several favourite books. When I woke up the following morning and saw the sun shining through the entirely inadequate curtains I was so contented that I wondered if I was still dreaming.

My dcs grew up to be lovely chaps - now 29 and 28 - and they were always supportive of my decision to leave their father who, eventually, managed to build up a good relationship with them. So all does not have to be dismal when you divorce.

Lovely story, Gloria. And yes yes to the diary idea from Jaded.

Gloria, that really is a wonderful story. It helps to hear from someone who experienced frequent minor experiences rather than one big scene. This situation is all the more confusing.

I am going to keepa diary. Already my memory is fading and then I remember a time and think how could I have forgotten about that???

Oh Gloria what a truly brilliant post. Just think Polaris, this could be you one day!

Do keep a diary, Polaris. I did, in the last few months of our marriage and not long ago I found it and read what I'd written. From the perspective of 22 years on, I found it hard to believe what I was enduring on a daily basis but actually, I also realised just how much you forget. But yes, I agree about how confusing the situation can be.

Another reason for me finally making the decision to go was that his nastiness had extended towards the children. He wasn't directly foul to them but his behaviour was directly affecting their lives and making them very unhappy. As an example, when they were 5 and 4, he decided (for reasons that didn't stand up to examination at the time, let alone viewed retrospectively!) that I didn't deserve a birthday present on the day itself so refused to take the boys into town to let them buy me anything. I can remember their desolate tears to this day. Bastard!

just wanted to say what a fab post gloria, many points i can identify with.

Right, I have tackled a lot of my demons in that last two weeks. I'm allowing myself to leave him if I so choose - I have taken on board everything about what's been said about staying together for the DCs. They will be alright.

I have read Lundy book - but although a lot of it applies, I'm still struggling with part of it.

If any of you have it, it's age 123: When it is Abuse. It says it's abuse if it's part of a pattern; that it's about power. For the life of me I just can't accept the fact that my DH is an abuser - he just doesn't seem strategic enough, or focused enough, or plotting enough to want to 'control' me. He just seems insecure and stupid and immature - which I suppose is why he tries to keep me repressed. I said it to him last night and he said 'maybe, never thought about it.'

Anyway, my DM is now on side. I spoke to her and explained some of the siatuions, and said you have my blessing to leave (in a nice supportive way, not a 'permission' way). she's been very good, but called the other day and started to tell me that my DF used to have a temper and see him now, he's all placid etc.. so it's like no one knows what to make of what I should do for the best.

DH is going to a counsellor tomorrow and then I'm going with him too.

I have asked him to leave while he tries to sort himself out, but he won't. He says he'll do whatever it takes, and is taking full responsibility that he has a problem and needs to change. I can't seem to work out if I'm about to throw away what could be the love of my life, or about to escape a deeply controlling relationship with a man who won't let me make my own decisions.

troube is, I've got it in my head that I want freedom from it all now. I relish the idea of being free, reestablishing old friendships and getting back out there again. Maybe I'm glorifying the thought of being single and that a harsh reality will hit. I just don't know, but I feel really good about the idea.

Trouble is this new focus is putting the guilt back on ME. I don't feel like a victim anymore - DH has become one instead because he knows ONE FOOT wrong and he's out.

It's not contributing to a natural environment either. I said to him last night it's either me walking on egg-shells or him, now that he knows he got to fix himself or forget it.

Also, it maybe just another 'nice phase' of the abuse cycle. How long do I have to wait until I know that he's definately changed? Until then, more limbo, more analysing, no peace of mind.

Then, finally, there is the thougt that the emotional affair I had with best friend has contributed to all this - in a chicken/egg situation - on so many levels.

Maybe he has a right to have been really pissed off with me, I mean it's awful what I did - and with his best friend too. Before this debarcle, we were the best we've ever been, despite the fact I had to put up with the occassional spell of bad drunken beahviour we were getting along well (for us!).

So, have moved on, but just to another level of confusion. Can anyone make anything of it?

polaris,
I have to go out in 30 secs but just wanted to say.

I've read the whole thread. You are starting a whole new journey in your life. Even as you learn the truth about your relationship it's normal to have doubts. You'll find answers here and in some of the books.

I've got the Lundy book, I think it's vital for you to read the Patricia Evans one (The Verbally Abusive Relationship....) She explains the mindset of an abuser as someone who is living in a different Reality to the victim. Please read it. Her explanation should help you to understand.

Gotta go.

"For the life of me I just can't accept the fact that my DH is an abuser - he just doesn't seem strategic enough, or focused enough, or plotting enough to want to 'control' me"

Ok, An abuser doesn't HAVE a strategy, or a focus or a plot to abuse his(her) partner.

Part of the answer is in your next line:

"He just seems insecure and stupid and immature - which I suppose is why he tries to keep me repressed. I said it to him last night and he said 'maybe, never thought about it.'"

The abuse is a consequence of his need for power (over you)...it's his way of BEING. It's a need to control. This doesn't mean he set out to find a wife he could control. But he feels comfortable being in control and he feels entitled to all this entails. The words he feels entitled are really important here.

Soon you will understand, profoundly, that although he may be...

insecure/stupid/immature/hurt by your emotional affair/lonely/sad/depressed/unable to control himself/etc/etc/whatever...

...he is not entitled, and never will be, to behave the way you have described to us.

Polaris

Do not do joint counselling with this man.
Counselling solely for your own self instead is adviseable.

Any counsellor worth their salt would not cousenl the two of you together if there is or was any hint of abuse.

Hello Polaris
have read the thread
have been in similar situation..not wanting to leave and upset the dc as it didn't seem quite bad enough.
fell into the trap of wanting dh to agree to split up ...this will never happen... in this situation they will do anything to keep you..weird that,considering they rate us so poorly !!
Thanks for posting your story..it is reminding me what i need to do.
sending you strength x

Polaris

I bet you a crisp £5 note that he finds some reason either not to attend counselling or equally to give up after one session saying to you that the woman counsellor had it in for him or words to that effect.

Joint counselling is also complete no-no also because of the ongoing abuse he is meting out in your direction. He will dominate any joint session and make it all out to be your fault. It will also justify his further abuses towards you in his own mind.

It is only when you are completely free of him will you perhaps realise the full extent of how abusive he actually was within your marriage. That realisation will then hit you like a ton of bricks.

Longer term I would recommend you get yourself onto the Freedom programme run by Womens Aid as such abusers can take years to recover from.

Your children won't thank you longer term for remaining with such an individual if you choose to. You have a choice re him, your children do not.

You stay with him - your children will suffer as a result and you will all get further dragged down with him. There is no other outcome. No amount of money or a home will compensate for their poor childhood because you were too weak to leave.

You are in a hole but Polaris you truly do not have to grow flowers in it. Dig your way out of it instead.

Abusers aren't some evil guy twirling a moustache. They're people who can't contain their own emotions so look at the person closest to them to be a punchbag, target, or container. That sounds like your DH.

My DH has a temper. He growls in anger when he drops something, he doesn't like it when I'm critical and snaps back, and we very occasionally yell at one another... because I have a temper, too. That's normal. What you describe is horrible, distressing abuse.

Haven't been on here for ages, but wanted to just say a heart-felt thanks for everyones input on this thread.

I can't begin to say what it has meant to me. I've really been through the mangle since posting in January. The two books that have been mentioned here - especially the Patricia one - have been fabulous and I can honestly say the veil has been drawn back from my face.

Unfortunately, I still can't make up my mind to stay or go. I tried very hard to get DH to leave for a bit but he won't go. So, I decided to get some things straight with a long term vision of leaving in the future and that's about where I'm at now.

DH is on good behaviour now and claims he has changed forever. It has led to a better home environment certainly, but I'm still asking myself if I want him as a DH. His behavious is getting on my nerves and I think he feels as if he's in a loose loose situation. I just wish he'd grow up and be normal rather than either being an arse or creeping around me sicophantically. Not sure which is worse TBH. I know now that he's just very immature and has no idea how to be in a healthy relationship, although he's doing everything he can to step up to the mark at the moment, and is also going to counselling.

Personally though, my life has changed enormously thanks to the fact that the confusion has now lifted. My friendships are better and I feel like I am back in control of my feelings and my life. I still like the idea of living alone with the kids although it's a bit daunting and sometimes too scary to deal with.

Thanks to those books and to you lot, I can also see how the behaviour of my DM has affected me as she is also a classic verbal abuser. Furthermore, I can see so many of my friends are also stuck in the same situation - in denial - with abusive, dominant partners. As I started to open up, they do too.

It seems we live in a society where abuse is rampant. There are so many people who have unhealthy insecurities that translate into the abuse of their loved ones. Some of my friends' DHs make mine look like mother Theresa, I can tell you.

I know it doens't make it right, but it certainly demonstrates that this is all part of life and relationshiops and that it's happening everywhere. I realise that this is a decision about my feelings towards DH. Can we build on our differences? Does his past behaviour warrant wiping eleven years off the clock? If he changes for good, do I still really want him? Will being alone and the problems it brings counteract the benefits of leaving him? Is it a question of 'better the devil you know'?

I'm still working on the answers to those.

Thanks for your update polaris.

Yes, it's amazing how you can begin to claim back some power and control over yourself and your life once you understand what's going on.

Yes - abuse is rampant. The non-violent version is difficult to recognise and deal with but, once you do....the tables will turn.

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

Thanks mum. It's been a life changing experience really, and has helped me in all sorts of areas. I now know the boundaries and that has given me confidence.