Can a man have a temper without it being 'abuse'?

[Polaris]

Can a man have a bad temper without his temper being abusive?

My DH has one. I suppose it is abusive because it's only ever aimed at me. But, he's not manipulative or controlling, so it's just a temper then, isn't it?

I'm aghast at this as I always listen to him. This is completely unfair. So, I say 'what have you said to me that I haven't listened to exactly.'. He said, 'OK, what peg should you put your towel on.' That pissed me off. I said 'that's not the sort of talking/listening I was referring to.' And then I had to dignify it with an answer. 'So you DO listen,' he says, 'you just choose to ignore me.' He then throws something about me not putting the milk away into the mix too. Seeing I cook all of his dinners and basically look after him like a prince, I can hardly believe how unfair this is

Polaris - what you have just described there is genuinely awful. He really really needs to change - immediatly - or you need to move on, unless being treated like a doormat is ok with you

Polaris, I was really shocked to read your post describing the treatment in the restaurant. I won't repeat what everyone else has said - I hope you find the strength to leave him.

The thing I wanted to come on and add though is that you have built up 'divorce' and 'broken homes' into something monstrous - when in fact they are a day to day reality for most of britain! I don't know where you are getting this idea that divorce would 'ruin' your childrens lives. Any expert will tell you that an unhappy home is far unhealthier - even if it's not abuse. Your situation is abusive - but even if it was simply that you are not happy - please believe that is enough reason to leave your relationship.

My parents split up when I was 12 - yes it was sad , but it was also fine - I am a succesful, happy person now as are my siblings. It's a normal part of life - dont use it as an excuse.

It is genuinely awful, Polaris. Your title question isn't awful - some people have shouty/sulky/etc tempers, some of their partners don't care, and that's fine. This thread isn't about a temper, though, it's about calculated humiliation & control. The man sees himself as a dictator and you as his "thing", a sort of personal slave. He knows he is wrong - that's why he waited until his friend had left the room before tearing you up at the restaurant.

Like your other respondents, Polaris, I do know how difficult it is to get your head around it and I do remember that powerful resistance to facing the truth (in fact, I didn't face it and have had to my learning retrospectively.) You made a great start by discussing things with an outside professional. Would it help you get your thoughts straight if you went and talked to a counsellor on your own?

I reckon your real-life friends might not be as deluded as you assume. You mum's clearly not coming from a sound pov, having chosen to stay in a bad marriage herself (she needs to justify her choices by making it 'all right' for you to do the same - mine did, too.) But your friends will have picked up on a few things. Could you sound them out, do you think?

I don't think personally that life would be that bad without him. It's the scare mongering that worries me from everywhere else. I'm worried that the low times of being a single mum will be more prolonged, lonely and difficult than putting up with his behaviour. Above all I worry about the dcs overall security. They have rights and so does dh. Even if he's a git.

I just think I made my bed so I have to lie in it. The kids didn't ask to be born. They deserve to have an easy life with no drama. Unless I am living in a real fool's paradise here, I have to stay. I just can't decide if I'm so far conditioned that I've lost the plot completely and can't see the damage he is doing.

I just don't know.

Nobody loves a martyr ... (until they've been dead for several centuries, anyhow)

Well here's a single mother....one DC working, doing a degree and competing in a demanding and time-consuming sport. The other DC doing final year A levels, several offers from THE top universities, working and competing in two demanding sports.

Me....single for four years..it is absolutely the best thing I have ever done...I have SAVED my children, and that is the truth of the matter, by leaving my controlling, cold and nasty exH.

I have achieved more in these four years than in my whole life and I wish to god I had left ten years earlier.

So please don't say that all the evil in the world is caused by single mothers and their children.

Why did you post here of you had no intention of listening to anyone? YOU have to take control. Be pro-active instead of re-active.

Polaris, you're not giving your kids an easy life by staying with this horrible man. They will grow up understanding that Daddy is the boss and owner of the household, and that if they disagree with him or don't obey him quickly enough then he will shout at them and be horrible, and Mummy will just stand there and wring her hands.

I'm really not saying anything like that. I just don't want to put my needs before anyone elses. I don't want to hurt anyone. It must also help that your dcs are older.

Small children have no knowledge of lives that are different from theirs. They are hard wired to believe their primary carers are perfect & know everything. They internalise everything they see and hear, storing it up as the perfect model for their future lives.

This is why I became a woman who believed that all men hit their wives, and that a woman's role is to placate an angry man :(

Actually it would have been about a million times easier had they been younger when I left.

They were already quite damaged by the time I saw the light. Luckily they are fine now, but it was touch and go for my younger child for a while. He was treating me as my exH had treated me, and I could see that he was going down the same path. I didn't want my son to treat any partner as I had been treated by his father and my ILs.

And my daughter has been very damaged as she was treated badly too. Undoing all the damage has been hard, but it is possible to do it without bringing up delinquents!

You are giving your children a twisted world view by accepting all this and making excuses. Listen to the very knowledgeable people on here who have walked in your shoes.

*ItsGraceAgain( - that's so sad, and so frightening, and true. Needed to hear someone say that

POLARIS - I think you have the message loud and clear from all MNs on this post, and I agree with them, especially about the emotional harm that is being done to your children now and in the future.

However, it is quite clear that you are not ready to leave this marriage. I am not being cynical - I understand that many women stay in r/ships like yours, and others take time to think about how they can move on. It takes courage to break a family up and you are not at the point where you are ready to do this. You may be one day.

I have seen many posts like yours, where everyone comes on telling you to leave (and most MNs who say this have been through similar situations and know the misery of living this sort of life) but when the posts come in, you start to defend him and say itg isn't as bad as you all think etc., and sometimes he's nice and I don't know whether it is abusive etc etc. It doesn't realy matter what you call it, it is an unhappy situation for you and the children, BUT you are staying put at the moment.

Maybe best to say so, so that posters can divert their energies elsewhere, and I hope that in times you can see your way to ending this abusive r/ship. Incidentally if you do, I really think it would be unwise to rush into another r/ship. You would need time to heal and gain some self respect and confidence in yourself but most of all why would you want to subject your children to a step-father after what they have been through.

I did notice that youasked your DD about her dad's behavior and she thought it was fine but then she's his pet. Wonder why you didn't ask your son. Even if you had, he would probably say it was ok. Kids often say what they know you want to hear.

I do honestly hope that via counselling you can improve your marriage or failing that, that one day you will have the strength and courage to call it a day.

he tells you which peg to hang your towel on FFS

Agree with icy grip - its easier if they are older. Am sure that my ds1 has been affected by my ea marriage (he was 9 when we split) is now 14.

Nothing is more liberating than being free of a controlling abusive man.

Yes single parent brings it's own problems - that's life tbh - but also brings many rewards.

And imo one of the worst things you can do after splitting with an ea man is leap into another live in relationship.

PS I take great pleasure in leaving things out of place now because I can.

Exh had completely unrealistic expectations - we both worked ft and he expected a house not affected by dcs.

When my DH is in a temper he just sulks and sits and mopes, the only time we have full blown arguments is when we have no money!!!!

What a great post, NanaNina

Polaris, having read your new posts, there seems to be one thing that your DH prizes above everything else

Control

Please read up on controlling men, and how they exercise that control on their immediate family. You may recognise more than you care to admit to.

I';m with the poster that said they had no feelings for their Dad and no respect for their Mum, after a childhood like the OP's.

Polaris....this will come back to bite you one way or another, your husband is a twat.

Polaris, I feel in a similar situation to you. My DH is not as severe as yours but he does have a temper and likes to get his own way. However I think he is spoilt, rather than abusive or controlling. His temper isn't frightening, more like a toddler's .

We have been together for 15 years.

What I have learnt on here, and through counselling (not for marriage problems but something else) is that actually my father was exactly like this (well I knew that anyway) but that it was not a normal way to behave. It was not OK to shout at your children and your wife and then (when they did nothing and it all blew over) pretend it never happened.

I loved my father dearly and would never ever say that he was abusive but, to a dispassionate 3rd party, he may well have been, and was certainly controlling. He died before I really left home, and I never put a foot wrong at home, so I never got to find out how he would have behaved if I disobeyed him or did something he didn't like.

But back to my DH. I love my husband very much and have chosen to have two children with him. I still want our marriage to work.

However, I realise now that I do not have to be treated the way he often treats me, that I do not have to put up with behaviour that he would not find acceptable in me. So I have changed the way I deal with him.

I will not allow him to shout at me or be dismissive, I will not react to his tantrums (usually around lost keys) or enable his behaviour in anyway. I refuse to be cajoled into certain things either by his stropping or sulking.

I also now confront his passive aggressive (and very subtle behaviour) head on and call it what it is.

It may sound like more trouble than it's worth but I do believe things are getting better, or at least I feel better about it.

If at some point DH decides that he doesn't like my new found assertiveness, then that's his choice. He can either moderate his behaviour or leave.

What I'm trying to say is that you have a right to live a life that you are happy with. Apart from the normal social conventions, you shouldn't have to justify your actions, tiptoe around someone or factor in their reactions to something. You have a right not to be with that person.

Noone is perfect, it's true, and only you can decide whether you think this is behaviour that could change if you changed, or not.

If you are frightened of standing up to him because you are afraid of what might happen, then you really do need to get out.

Polaris, I understand that you're in the phase of trying to work out what's going on, and I've been there, it does take some mental processing. Very, very useful things to do:

a) read Lundy Bancroft "Why does he do that?" - there is a chapter about controlling fathers and the damage they do to the family unit even where they never directly turn their anger on the children. Powerful stuff.

b) talk to Women's Aid. They won't pressure you into anything you're not ready for, but they can help a lot with the practical and emotional side of things.

c) try to get some individual counselling (not couple counselling).

d) keep a diary and record his behaviour.

I left in May 2009 with my then 18-month-old. Yes, I was sad to let go of the dreams of us as a happy little family unit, but Polaris, oh the peace of coming home and closing my front door and knowing that nobody is going to explode at me in rage. 20% is a lot of your life to spend in anxiety, and of course it seeps into the other 80%, because you never know when it will tip over into aggression.

Seriously, do you want your children repeating this family life in future? It takes a big act of courage to break the cycle.

My DD still sees her father regularly. I feel a bit conflicted about it, but it seems to be going fairly okay (even if he did give her cheezy wotsits for breakfast today). You needn't feel guilty that you're stopping your dcs from having a relationship with their father if/when you leave.

It's comforting to hear your stories, but at the same time sad to digest your experiences.

Thanks for your posts.

I am making some progress. Today, I am ready to accept that his behaviour is controlling.

But, I am still in a state of confusion and I could do with your input.

You see, I am convinced that DH does not have a clue that he is acting in a potentially - oh alright - downright abusive way.

I feel sorry for him, which stops me rationalising about what to do next. He can't stop being the way he his - he can't be any other way. He doesn't see where he's going wrong.

And so I feel sorry for him and then I feel guitly.

He isn't doing it on purpose, so is as much of a victim of himself as I am. If we split up he will go on to have a similar relationships with another woman, he won't learn - because this is the way he is.

That's different from consciously creating an environment of fear, isn't it?

He isn't plotting to undermine me. He isn't setting out on purpose to have create a stepford wife who is fightened. His poor little brain just isn't equipped to have a grown up relationship.

If I thought there was true mallice there, I wouldn't have a problem with breaking up with him. But this sympathy I feel for him is making is much harder. It makes me feel as if I'm turning my back on him when we vowed to stay together through thick and thin.

We tried talking last night, but he got aggitated (not in a way to intimidate me - he just can't stop his adreneline pumping when he feels threatened), and a bit shouty and then resorted to going on about the bloody milk again. He was convinced I was trying to argue with him on purpose just because I was trying to broach the subject about his potential abuse.

He didn't sleep last night. I texted him to see if he's okay and got one back saying, no not really - we need to talk without shouting.

It's the guilt that is preventing me from leaving. Guilt that I'm ditching him when he needs me, guilt that I'm destroying the family.

If I got rid of the guilt I could see clearly, but I'm racked in it and prevents me from doing anything - from looking after my own happiness.

If there was some underlying intent there to undermine me, then that would be evil. But there isn't. He just hasn't a clue and that fact traps me.

Sorry for posting and running yesterday. I'm really glad to see that you have some wise birds helping you on this thread.

I'm going to tell you somethng about me, to illustrate how it could affect your children.

My dad was a bastard to my mum. He had a temper and he used to shout and abuse her at times, never 'in front of me' but I knew. He was never anything other than completely lovely to me. She would be careful when he was around, not to set him off and I sensed that change in her. I'm talking about from when I was a toddler, I can still remember it. They eventually separated when I was 3 and divorced when I was 8, I've never seen him since, but that's not really relevant to this.

Mum then brought me up on her own, she never had another relationship. When I grew up, I married a man who was just like my dad! I was nervous all the time, walking on eggshells not to set him off and I could tell what kind of mood he was in by the sound of his key in the door. Got away from him after 10 years and since then I've had two serious relationships, the most recent of which I'm still in.

My dp is a lovely, sweet, funny, gentle man. I find myself becoming nervous about half an hour before he's due home, just in case he's in a mood - he rarely is, he might grump sometimes about the tube or whatever but nothing significant. I tiptoe around and am very careful with how I word things so they can't be misconstrued and I tie myself up in knots with anxiety because I'm afraid he'll get in a mood with me.

I will reiterate, he's never given me cause to be nervous or anxious around him and would be mortified if he thought he had, but I am because that's what I learned from my parents when I was a toddler that everyone assumes won't remember.

So please please don't make the mistake of thinking your children aren't affected.. they really are and it's so subtle and insidious that I didn't even realise myself how entrenched I am in this pattern.

I actually have to thank you because your post really made me think about what's going on with me and to start looking for a way to resolve it and I'm 40!

Phew.. that was a long ramble.. sorry

Polaris - this is your husband, not a child or an animal.

He can help the way he behaves. If he can't, or chooses not to, then that is his problem yours.

And you can help the way you behave in return.

What made me realise something had to change is that I would make excuses for my husband that I would not make for my 5 year old child.

Thanks Crispy - I am waking up to the fact that exposure to relationships at a young age will have a bad effect.

Maybe I'm stuck in a rut, not from the way my placid, gentleman of a father was, but because my mum is in the cycle. Her dad was an awful abusive - he had torrets, but of course 'back then' this wasn't really recognised. He used to beat my granny - I don't know for sure what my mum was exposed to as she won't say.

She's turned out to be high maintenance and a shouty control freak - nice one minute, but will then blow up and have a high drama to get her own way, claiming everyone is against her and she's had a shit life.

Now I've married one. I don't think I've got a clue what a functional marriage is tbh. All I can see is that it's something to be endured.

I feel now that I only want to be in a relationship if it is functional - a true unity - and I'd rather be alone than have anything else.