The Brave Babes Battle Bus - Carry On Past The Offy!!

[Mouseface]

Well, this is our tenth thread so we are throwing a little party!

Everyone is invited! No booze of course, soft drinks and mocktails only!

I'm Mouse, hello.

There are all kinds of drinkers on board the bus. Come and join the journey, whatever stage you are at, drinking, cutting down, wanting to stop or sober already.

Everyone is welcome to post here. Come say hi.

The journey so far is below.

JWN's original thread

Thread two

Thread three

Thread four

Thread five

Thread six

Thread seven

Thread eight

Thread nine

"So what if you are proved right?" Well, there will be one more rough sleeper in my area; one more child without a dad; one more hospital bed taken up by a helpless drunk; perhaps a couple more women coming on Mumsnet and breaking everyone's hearts with stories about how their lives have turned to shit because a close male relative, who used to have everything going for him, didn't stop drinking.

"Surely that is his choice?" If it really was his "choice" then none of us would be here, would we? We would all have reached the point where we said, "enough is enough" and stopped. Just like that. No slips or backsliding, no wrestling with demons, no weeping with shame at another failure, another broken promise. That's what it was like for me and I know that, for at least some of the people, that's what it's like for them.

You are right - we have all chosen not to drink today. How did we all get to that position? Also, this is only the beginning - it is a decision we take every day. Sometimes, I used to forget to take that decision, or even decide not to take it. It was horrific.

"How can AA help him?" Well, perhaps it can't. If he is not willing to be honest about his drinking, he hasn't got a hope. And even then he may decide that AA is not for him. But, in the mean time, I would feel I was cheating him to tell him that he had a good chance of succeeding by cutting down. I don't even need experience or AA theory to say that - his failure is taking place before my eyes.

When my own doctor told me that I might not see 30 if I continued drinking, and I nevertheless drank that very day, do you think it was a choice to do so? It certainly wasn't a rational one. I believed that something magical and mystical would happen between then and my 30th birthday - if I had taken him seriously on a rational basis, I would have stopped immediately, of course.

The most pernicious feature of alcoholism (imho) is that it convinces you that the maddest things are, in fact, the result of a rational and reasonable thought process.

But I do apologise sincerely if, in publicising that viewpoint, I have upset anyone else.

Stay where you are SAF . .

Hey guys, this thread is moving away from being a supportive, non judgmental, pleasant place to be... What can be done about it?

Am afraid I am going to ignore the previous posts, I haven't read any of them closely enough to form an opinion and have a strong aversion to anything that feels a bit argumentative (I'm a delicate thing )

Anyway, I just wanted to come on and have a quick catch up.

Its been nearly 9 weeks since I had a drink. On the whole I don't miss it and when I do, I don't miss it enough to throw away what I have gained in the past 2 months. I miss the idea of having one or two drinks but that more of a fantasy to be honest. Its been an adjustment to the fact that life is still life - there are good days and bad, but none are spent in a drunken or hungover haze. I am still useless at managing my time so constantly behind on work, my DD still runs rings round me but I know that I am doing my best. I am present.

I would not have gotten here if it wasn't for the kindness, caring, wisdom, support and tough love shown on here. I hope that I can support others in the future, sorry I am not there yet.

Don't you dare SAF!!

MIFLAW - so now you are going to pull my post apart. Fine.

I stand by what I said.

""So what if you are proved right?" Well, there will be one more rough sleeper in my area; one more child without a dad; one more hospital bed taken up by a helpless drunk; perhaps a couple more women coming on Mumsnet and breaking everyone's hearts with stories about how their lives have turned to shit because a close male relative, who used to have everything going for him, didn't stop drinking."

That can be said for people who don't drink too! Life can turn to shit at the drop of a hate. Familes break up all of the time. Men leave, women leave, people die. Children lose parents, homes, the life that they knew without the aid of alcohol.

I still think this guy has a choice. He has a choice to seek help. To try and stop. AA alone won't do that for him. He has to want it and clearly he doesn't.

That's life! I really don't see how you can save him. How anyone can stop him drinking. Or stop the gambler gambling, the smoker smoking, the drug addict shooting up, the man taking the plane that crashed, the woman from driving off the motorway bridge......

SAF

I agree that he needs all of those things. Unfortunately, all the time he is convinced that his drinking is sometihng that he can stop at will, he is unlikely to get them. Such "real friends" as he has are his fellow drinkers who are extremely unlikely to ask him the challenging questions you suggest as that would involve examining their own drinking.

"probably a psychiatric assessment to work out what the fuck is going on to make him incapable of stopping drinking in the face of losing everything and possibly hospitalisation." It will perhaps surprise you that these ideas are not new to him. He has had all of that, several times over. He continues to drink. So, having had all that and it having failed to work, what is it he now "needs" and who, exactly, is going to provide it, and on what terms?

I certainly never called him a failure and I didn't hear anyone else call him a failure. He was listened to exactly like everyone else in the room. He was then listened to for half an hour AFTER the meeting by people (including me) who had families to get home to but were nevertheless willing to stand and try to help him.

Again, I don't think I've attacked anyone - though I see that LRD took it that way, and I have apologised for it. But, in order to give a balanced picture, I should add that, in between the "fucking catchphrases and smart arse aa rhetoric" that are the staple of my life, I have nevertheless found time in the past to call ambulances for badly suffering drunks, and ferry one of them in my car to the hospital (to have a piece of glass removed from his arm as a result of falling through a plate glass window) and wait for him. I also fit in time to acknowledge these drunks on the street if I know them from visits to AA instead of scurrying past them staring at the ground, which the majority of the respectable population seem to do.

I am willing to take a lot of criticism, here and elsewhere - but if you think that my only contribution to the suffering of drunks is to add to it through trite comments, you are well wide of the mark.

I am now stepping away from this thread. I will be back later once I've calmed down as I'm not helping anyone.

Christi - you are right. I apologise to anyone I have offended or upset by engaging with MIFLAW. Sorry Brave Babes xx

mouse hope you're ok xxx deep breaths!

Mouse

I am not pulling your post apart.

"Children lose parents, homes, the life that they knew without the aid of alcohol." Of course they do. Nevertheless, families with one or more alcohol or drug-dependent members are more than over-represented here.

"He has a choice to seek help." Does it occur to you that that is why he has come to AA? And that, like many people who come to AA, he has come there last, not first - after he has already tried (or been made to try) all the other methods he feels are open to him and found them wanting? Maybe AA won't work for him either - but I should think that his presence is an admission of wanting help rather than simple curiosity.

MIF: You didn't quote me. You paraphrased me. A quotation, as you doubtless know, given your previous snide comment about academic notation, would be contained in quotation marks. It would also reproduce accurately what I said.

Not everyone drinks for the same reasons. Not everyone stops in the same way or using the same philosophies. That much is very clear from this thread. I can't help feeling you are less interested in alcoholism itself, or in helping others to stop drinking, than you are in demonstrating that your way is The Right Way and the only way.

Moving on.

MrsGee - wow, nine weeks! That's an inspiration.

Christi, how about olives or nuts before supper to fill you with 'good' calories? I have a recipe from Cranks (remember them?) that has become a ritual, along with a juice (which is a bore to make daily unless
you live with a health freak and just learn to work around it) Olives cost 89p from Tesco and probably much cheaper) I am not convinced about alcohol needing to be replaced by sugar, but willing to stand corrected.

Mine is a carrot and apple circa 1994 @ Waggamammas.

Right, if you all keep on at each other I am going to start rocking back and forth in a corner. I come here because its a supportive place, not because I want to witness you all swiping at each other. I feel like putting you all on the naughty step, this is getting silly now.

Surely there is room for all different types of support on here? I am sure that we all have our own preferences but surely we can see the value in each others approaches.

Both MIFLAW and Mouse have given me wonderful support and I think that the board benefits from different kinds of help. Some people are going to give one kind of help - same as in real life, you go to those people (or they come to you) when you need that kind of support.

You don't all have to be friends and have a group hug but can we not agree to have different viewpoints? different ways of supporting each other? its not the first time that people have taken a different approach and won't be the last - however, I am at a loss as to how its crumbled into this. I'd be very sad if everyone's experiences on here weren't valued and felt to be valid.

OK?

LRD

The comment about the academic notation was not intended to be snide at all. You said you were a PhD student; I was a PhD student; it was a joke about being a PhD student. That's all. Sorry if it came across wrong.

I did not paraphrase; I removed a line from the middle which didn't seem (to me) to change the gist of what you were saying. Again, apologies if you feel different.

I don't want to demonstrate that my way is the Right Way or the only way. As you say, lots of different ways work for different people. It is, however, the only way that I have seen work over any length of time in anyone who drinks in an alcoholic way - by which I mean, anyone who is suffering from their alcohol consumption yet seems unable to stop or healthily moderate unaided. I found it through AA - but in fact it is a much more general approach involving honesty, abstinence and self-appraisal.

I really am sorry if what I said offended you. That was not my intention. What I tried (and clearly failed) to put across was that I had been in a very similar situation to you; that it had then got worse; that, in my case, I now take that and my subsequent behaviour to be the sign of some rather unhealthy thinking; and that, through abstinence and the rest of it, I am now able to live a happy life without needing to shut down various thought processes.

That's just me. If it helps someone, it helps; in the mean time, apologies once more for causing offence.

As I have tried to explain, I don't see any similarities between your situation, as you describe it, and mine.

I don't think you know enough about me to judge whether or not my thinking is unhealthy.

I'm stepping away for a bit now, as Mrs Gee is right.

Then apologies again.

forthe

you have inspired me to hunt out some olives in the fridge.

forthe what's the recipe please, thanks for your tips by the way!

Spiced Mixed Nuts:

'Simple to prepare and very tasty. Serve with drinks or a salad selection'.

Sunflower seed oil (2 tbsp)
Mixed shelled nuts (peanuts, cashew nuts, almonds and sunflower seeds) 1 1lb, 450g
Garlic clove, crushed, one
Chilli powder half tsp
Paprika (half tsp)
Soya sauce (2tbsp)

Heat oil in med saucepan.
Add nuts and stir over low heat for 5-6 mins.
until turn golden brown,
Add garlic, chilli and paprika and stir for 2 mins.
Add soya sauce and stir to cover the nuts.
Fry until soya sauce is used up.

Store airttight until needed.

Make before needed.

I typed all that from old Cranks cookbook. Do I get a housepoint?

housepoint awarded!

Thanks very much!

Well I posted on here last week after what I thought was my lowest point last monday - I have managed to exceed that this week.

Last monday for various reasons I necked most of a bottle of extra strength gin in 5 hours and passed out at 8pm after talking complete and utter tosh on the internet with a friend. Woke up at 2am, finished the bottle then felt retched all tuesday. Went to stay in a hotel on tuesday (early day on client site) and for one reason or another woke up with a sore throat and the beginnings of flu.

That was two nights hotel wasted in one week. So I self medicated with hot toddies on wednesday and thursday and then friday - I did not drink for the first time in years when on my own.. No withdrawal, no problems, felt great.

So of course I celebrated on saturday with a drink. Sunday I am staying at a friends involving train travel so by the time I got to hers it was already a bottle of wine and a few gins. And of course we always share a bottle or two with dinner.

So yesterday I slept through my alarm, ended up getting a train and going to weatherspoons for breakfast - and of course a pims or three because its okay to drink pims at 11am. Bottle of wine on the train home - at least I realised I was way over the limit - so I got a taxi from the station and of course started on the bottle of gin in the cupboard. I didnt pass out last night - that much I do know - but I feel absolutely wretched today. Hangover (which I normally never get cos I'd start drinking by now). shakes - havent even gotten dressed.

I thought last week was my low point - nothing compared to this. I've got work to do, exams to study for and all I can do is sit here in front of a computer shaking and surfing the net.

I won't be drinking today

Oh, fallen, sweetheart.

At least you know it's making you feel wretched. You can be strong, you can get through it. It's great to be on the first day knowing you won't have a drink.

Stupid thing is, alcohol has cost me so much over the years. My relationship (10 years) is almost over because of it, I've gained 5 stone in three years.

Back in 2008 I nearly alienated my best friend/sister over it when I stayed with her (she lives in another country) and got shit faced every night in front of her kids

Oh and I'm in debt up to my neck despite earning a more than impressive sum because of buying random crap off the internet when drunk not including the cost of the alcohol itself.

Do I really need to stay in a hotel to go to client site? not at all - if I could rely on being able to get up in the morning like normal people but I know I can't so I book into a local hotel which of course just gives me the excuse to drink cos thats what you do in hotels.

It has to stop NOW

fallen your first post made me . Your second sounded a bit more positive. Sounds to me like you've thought long and hard about what needs to change. Maybe today is the day to make that change

Take good care of yourself today, plenty of water, small snacks if you can face them and rest. Hope you're feeling better soon.