Another DickFace to Add to The Pile

[PfftTheMagicDragon]

....Of men that you thought wouldnever betray you but then did it anyway!

My DH has always been loyal. To a fault. Never cheated. Was cheated on in the past by girlfriends, worshipped the ground I walked on. Good sex life, with dry patches, we had started about a year ago to spice things up, toys, bondage.

Turns out, he's been internet flirting/sexting/fucking her on MSN!!

Delightful

It started 6 days ago. I have seen his phone. And the e-mails and a picture that they exchanged.

And now I am just like all the others. I did ask him how it felt - To be just like all the other cheating dickwads that I read about on here. If it was worth it, if he was thinking about what every other weekend would feel like when he was telling her how much he likes her wet pussy.

Super.

I'm angry, can't you tell?

Thanks PB. He isn't pressuring me, but his counsellor is encouraging him to talk about how he feels rather than bottling things up.

WWIFn - you've asked some questions that have really made me think.

I think that there is a combination of reasons for me resisting the touching (and we are just talking a cuddle, or a foot tickle, not even sex). I think that I know it will make me feel better. That the comfort and the closeness that you get when you are tactile with someone will make me feel better and make me feel closer to him. And I'm worried about moving too fast. About taking on a level of acceptance that I might later regret. But I can't live like this, I know. You are right when you say that sex and touching doesn't equal forgiveness, but it feels to me like an extra level of closeness that I am not sure about.

Secondly, even though he didn't, it feels like he had sex with someone else. It feels like we haven't been exclusive any more and there's a "dirtyness" (not really the right word but not sure what is) to touching him.

Finally, there is an element of it being hard for me to let go of the "wounded party status". I find this quite hard to admit because it seems like a very selfish thing and I suppose part of it is punitive. Maybe it's that I don't know what lies beyond this part, but I know that moving past this is vital to us getting back together. It has always been the case in our relationship that physical intimacy, of all types, has helped us get along. That if I start being tactile with him, then I think that maybe I have to let that go - we are on to the next stage of things.

I understand about you not wanting to let go of the 'wounded party status'. I have said to my H that I am scared that the more we move towards healing, the less serious he will think his actions were. He assures me that he will never forget how he has wronged me and how serious it was.

I'm not sure it feels like my H had sex with the OW but there have been times when I have said you him 'the way I feel, you might as well have had sex because I couldn't feel any worse'. I don't feel like that now, so maybe it's just time. I know what you mean about the not being exclusive part. For a time, our Hs have shared a secret with somebody else and we have deliberately been excluded from that secret. That really, really hurts.

I hope you don't mind me giving you my thoughts, I don't know if they are helpful at all. WWIFN, I am sure, will keep on with her sound advice.

Yes, they are helpful. It certainly helps to know that someone else has felt the things that you are feeling. I agree completely with your first paragraph - that is how I feel. I have put this to H and he says the same as yours - that he will never forget, that nothing can diminish it. I suppose I am worrying too much about what message my actions put across.

For me, the touch thing felt wrong because I thought he needed it from me and I wasn't inclined to do or give anything to him right there and then. I wanted to be allowed my own physical space truth be told. He held my hand and I felt really frozen when he did, as if it was all wrong and he was leaning on me for support or physical comfort. I couldn't really articulate what I needed from him around that time, but I knew inside what I didn't need when it cropped up. (Strangely enough, every time I felt that I could actually accept a physical touch from exH I would find something new on the computer that brought me right back to square one again -- eventually lack of honesty on his part killed it. The 'wounded party status' kept on being justified.)

Your H is being more open, and seems to be taking things seriously with the therapy, but you have a right to be open too about your needs and non-needs and how you are feeling, and to proceed at your own pace. There's no wrong/right to your feelings or to his. I don't think you need to have 'unimpeachable' motivations for any of your reactions or responses. Keeping on digging down through the layers of your own feelings, and accepting yourself, while being committed to the relationship, is the best you can hope for from yourself, and the best your DH can too. This is what you have asked of him.

Sorry a bit rambly and incoherent.

Blimey. Have just read this thread in its entirety. It's much more helpful than the counsellor I went to see this morning about my own cheating lying H. There is so much here than I can identify with and relate to.

Are you ok Bloomintroll? What happened to you?

I've posted here in the last couple of days but it was my first post and I made a mess of it by not explaining properly at the outset and I only managed to get to the point about half-way down the page! Title is about cheating online and offline and I don't know hwo to do links.

I'm feeling alternately numb and then furious and then totally grief-stricken. But reading the posts here from people who've lived very similar stuff is really helpful. But basically I'm not brilliant.

I mean I started a thread couple of days ago

was it under this current name, BT ?

math - thank you for your post

BloominTroll, I remember your thread. I did have a look at it. I hadn't seen your latest post until just now. I wanted to respond but am quite reticent to post on relationship threads at the moment, understandably

You will get some good advice on your thread, I have had some here, as you can see. I have found it incredibly helpful to talk to men and women who have been through similar to me, more than I ever thought I would. And so much more than standard empathy, but proper, practical, useable advice that has helped me sort through my feelings.

I think that any sort of feeling at the moment is legitimate. You can be excused a lack of brilliance

My inital feelings were anger (as you have probably seen) - in fact, I have never been so angry. Then the numbness started, but interspersed with the anger. The sadness didn't come until much later for me, I think the anger took over.

I hope you are feeling ok. Don't criticise yourself at all. I will read over your big post tomorrow.

Hello AF!

The thread is here

thanks pfft

< quick squeeze >

Thank you SO much.
I am fizzing with anger. I'm also totally exhausted with all this emotion, and also with having to suppress it all for the sake of my children. God knows how I'm going to get through half-term.

Pfft I've been having a bit more of a think about what might be happening for you.

I think I may have said on your thread (if not, I have said it on others) that I pick up on language a lot. In your original post, you said that he worshipped the ground that you walked on and I remember your post about the admiration you had for your friend who ran her marriage "on her terms". Now that FL has dearly departed, can we progress this a bit more?

I'm wondering what was the power dynamic in your relationship, before this happened?

Whether there is anything going on about having to challenge the roles you carved out i.e. he was the adoring one and you were the adored? And whether there is some anger about how dare he reverse the roles here?

And whether because you are still coming to terms with the loss of that power, you are with-holding?

Have a think about all this. I may be way off the mark with this, but if I'm not, one of the best things that come out of this is a more egalitarian relationship where it is expected that you are both adored and loved by the other in equal measure.

WWIFN I've been thinking about your post.

Whilst I would say that I was over egging the pudding somewhat by saying he worshipped the ground I walked on (I wanted some catchall statement to show that he was generally attentive)...there is something there when you talk about the power dynamic in our relationship.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that I am tradtionally the adored one, but I would definitely agree that I was the one "in charge" as it were. I have generally steered our relationship, most of that is down to our respective personalities. And yes, there was more than an element of "how dare he?" to my anger at the start.

We have been more physical these last few days, since my last post. I have been trying, see how it goes. I knew that it would make me feel better and it does.

I do have issues with control, clearly. There were times, this morning, where he went to initiate touch, and my instinct was to shy away. Because I think I want to be the one deciding these things at the moment. But I am pushing that to one side - he does have a need for comfort as well.

Well Pfft I am glad that you are feeling better and I understand why you feel the way you do. I am reminded whenever we correspond about how much you learn about yourself in this process and the scripts that were enacted in your relationship. Also, how liberating it can be to dump that script after something like this, because the pay-off to no longer playing the role of the "responsible one" in the relationship is that the marriage becomes much more egalitarian and balanced. That can be quite scary for someone who likes control, but also very "freeing" too.

Thanks, WWIFN you have been so amazingly helpful on my thread - thank you for taking so much of your time to help me

Having a pretty shitty time of it at the moment. I may well be talking to no-one.....

WWIFN - I need to speak to someone, a counsellor. About our relationship. At some point, we need to see someone together, but I would also like to talk to someone by myself. Would this be the same counsellor? How would I go about finding one that isn't going to fuck me off with their "blame the relationship" ideology? Are there certain questions I can ask on the telephone? Are there any pointers you can give to me? Thank you, in advance, if you even see this. Maybe I should have started a new thread, but I didn't want to risk having to explain everything again.

Things are difficult. Of course, I knew that they would be. I am concerned that H didn't realise how hard they would be. He seems frustrated that things don't go as he thinks they should. He's read Shirley Glass' book and he says that he's frustrated that I'm not acting how they say I should be in the book, that we aren't working together enough. Although, what he means is that I am not working together enough.

This is because I feel that he is not doing what he said he would do when I said I would try again. He's going to counselling.. And that's great, he is getting a lot from it. But they don't talk about the infidelity. They talk about his wider issues. And whilst I accept that he needs to talk about this, and that it is relevant, these are not the issues that directly led to the infidelity, which is what we agreed that he would seek help for. The sense of entitlement, the porn use. And, now that I bring it up, he is questioning the sense of entitlement at all.

I'm concerned that as time passes, sometimes things are better, and as he does more counselling, the whole issue has just become about what he is dealing with at counselling. That he is dealing with these problems and isn't he great, whilst at the same time, almost subconsciously forgetting about the other things, the very reason he was supposed to be there in the first place. That things have settled down a bit and the pressure is off.

He says he wants us to see a counsellor together, that he hadn't thought of seeing a relationship counsellor alone as clearly I have opinions about the situation that he doesn't share (the entitlement - and he is also now claiming that his porn use did not increase and was not that bad) and we should talk it out together.

It feels as if he will keep to the conditions of the relationship....if I nag him about it. We clearly have a parent/child thing going on. So do I have to wait for him to deal with this in counselling until he can grow up and be adult enough to do what he said he would do to save our marriage?

I feel like an idiot. Idiot wife who gives him a second chance. She gives conditions, but then he doesn't meet them. Might as well enroll on that How To Be The Best Doormat You Can Be course.....

what a fucking waffle. sorry. I need AF to cut me down to size.

Hello Pfft. Sorry you're going through a rough time. Did he stay with the same counsellor as the one he started with? As I recall, I had some reservations about the first one...

Okay, think widely here and think private practitioners as well as Relate. Whoever you call, ask these questions:

1. What experience do they have of treating clients when they have experienced infidelity?
2. What experience do they have of helping people for whom porn has had a negative impact on their relationship?

3.Why do they think affairs happen?

1. Have they read Not Just Friends and do they subscribe to its message?

WRT question 3, what you are looking for is someone who sees infidelity more holistically; recognising that there are often individual, lifestyle and societal vulnerabilities, as well as relational issues. Sometimes there are no relational issues or lifestyle issues, but I have yet to come across an affair or any type of infidelity that did not point to an individual vulnerability or issues relating to gender politics and society's "norms".

Porn use has become a more pernicious "norm" for example, in the past 20 years because of the web. The infidelity you uncovered is very much a sign of our times and you need a counsellor who is well versed in what's really happening in society at the moment.

Happy to act as a sounding board Pfft if you want to talk through some of the issues.

I remember your thread and how switched on you were about what you wanted. You're not an idiot at all, you gave your DH a second chance based on his promises and it now sounds like he is re-writing history.

I am just bumping this for you till some other people come along. Sorry to hear you're having such a shitty time.

He initially saw a Relate counsellor when he was staying away from home at the start, just after the revelation. It was just an initial appointment though and he didn't see her again. Which was just as well as she spouted some drivel.

He found a counsellor close to home straight after this. He started going every week but after a few weeks, she said that she thought he only needed to come every fortnight. He has been seeing her since then.

Thank you for the counsellor advice.

Thank you, loves2cycle.

Can't really help Pfft but just wanted to let you know that it sounds deeply frustrating and shit and I sympathise.

You sound lovely, and it is sooooo unfair (Kevin the teenager voice) that you are having to pick up the pieces while he enjoys a lovely weekly chat with a sympathetic listener about him. What is the point of the counselling if it's not dealing with the issues? Might as well be badminton practice or something.

That's OK pfft. Glad to see WWIFN here.

Did you keep a diary at the time of your problems? Just that might help you hang onto your reality if he tries to distort it.

Yes, Elf. It is silly for me to be resentful of the time that he has with the counseller. After all, he is not evil. He has issues that he needs to sort out, and indeed that for the long term success of our relationship, must be sorted out. BUT, I do feel resentful that he goes and has his chat, and feels all good about himself, patting himself on the back about how he is working things through with the wife. When in actuality, is has become clear, through what I have gleaned from his talking about his therapy, that they don't even touch on the issues that directly relate to the infidelity.

I want him to "fix" himself. I am glad that he is sorting this out. But that isn't the fucking finishing line!

He said that he was so pleased with the counselling the other week - that he was glad that he was going to sort these issues out and be a better person. And I couldn't help but say - "Yes. It's marvellous for you. But you get to be a better person at the expense of me - it's only by ripping me apart that you get to fix yourself." So what happens at the end? He's a better, well rounded person. Who got there by betraying his family.

I sound so fucking self indulgent. Clearly, I need to talk to someone as I should probably have moved past this stage by now. I just wonder if I will ever get over the fact that I will always be a different person now?