🦈 Archers thread #137: See left - have they jumped it? Discuss The Caseys - sorry, The Archers - here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you think Steph Casey is a wonderful addition to the programme, or similar odd views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/4197199--The-Archers-spoilers-thread-6-Cant-wait-for-7-02pm-Join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Too dispirited to add much else. Have we reached a new low?

I suppose the Archer twins will be born before we need a new thread. 👶👶
Any thoughts on names? Patrick and Antonia were suggested before - inspired! Peggy has to be a strong contender.

Over to you!

I have a friend who works in pronunciation: her view of putting on a French/Spanish accent to say croissant or paella, insisting than the singular of panini is panino etc. is that the general trend is to limit it to a very small number of Romance languages (basically French, Spanish, and Italian are by far the biggest hitters). She doesn't say this, but my interpretation is that it's the languages learned in school by naice middle class gels in generations past, and where the naice middle class families holidayed. It's much rarer with Germanic languages, and almost unheard of in non-European languages (how often have you heard someone in an Asian supermarket attempting an 'authentic' pronunciation of kombucha?!). To go back to the football, people try to say PSG Frenchly (and largely fail, because, as noted above, they're almost universally referred to as PSG and not the full name), but very try the same with Dinamo Zagreb (FWIW, the stress should be on the first syllable of Zagreb, unlike the standard English pronunciation).

IMO, it's fine to try for a non-anglicised pronunciation of a word if you want, but really pretentious to insist that it's the 'correct' pronunciation just because it more closely approximates the language it was borrowed from, unless you're prepared to carry it through for all loan words, and even then you'll, at best, look like someone who doesn't really understand how languages work. Not saying anyone here does that, but it's something I often come across IRL.

Just been listening on catch up and am wondering if now Kathy has gone Joy is being lined up as Pats new BFF ?

And boop for Russ (never thought I would say that !) defending Chelsea

the general trend is to limit it to a very small number of Romance languages (basically French, Spanish, and Italian are by far the biggest hitters). She doesn't say this, but my interpretation is that it's the languages learned in school by naice middle class gels in generations past, and where the naice middle class families holidayed

My take on it would be that people are less familiar with Asian languages (for example) as France/Spain/Germany/etc. are right on our doorstep (and therefore, they are the languages studied due to convenience).

@BeaLola I thought Russ was good with Chelsea and actually good with Freddie too. You could tell he was used to speaking to teens/young people and I guess would have provided sound pastoral support to his charges at college. Shame about the inappropriate relationship bit...

Presumably Chelsea will be given a second chance now - which I'm not completely against (although massively dangerous mistake for her to have made) as long as she goes back to previous Chelsea instead of this horrible version we have currently.

I enjoyed Joy too. Hopefully she and Pat will have a good day at the festival and not hate each other by the end. As far as Rochelle goes, wasn't there supposed to be a (much-heralded) visit some time ago - Joy was tremendously excited only to be let down by Rochelle cancelling at the last minute? My memory may be playing tricks on me though. And I guess that gives no actual evidence as to whether Rochelle is real or imagined.

Well at once stage it seemed Joy was lined up to be Tony's best friend. Tony was helping her with her classic car (no idea what it is) and generally being a companion until Tom got funny about it the other Christmas I think

I am also going along with the theory that her daughter is dead too and she is in deep denial. Too perfect for this world.

The classic car is an MG, I think.
No BOOP from me for Russ defending Chelsea. Her behaviour was completely unacceptable, and could have easily put someone's life in danger.

Hmmm not a dead dd - that's quite extreme in real life. But maybe something else. She and the grandchildren (is there?) are literally never there and that is odd. Sooo estrangement or something similar. That's probably more realistic. Unless no dgc's and then maybe some lien of life limiting condition that Joy is not accepting. A long build up tho. Years!

Yes, this struck me as well. You could hear the teacher/young-person-support in him (very reminiscent of my friends who work in youth services) which I don’t think we’ve heard before from him. Could get a sense he was once good at his job. Thought it was well done.

Thinking about it, are there any other teachers/lecturers/child minders in Ambridge? I wouldn’t mind hearing a bit about the current state of education in rural areas. And also a child minder would serve as a great melting pot for drama… I mean chat at pick up time…. How many of the next generation are there now? Rosie/Xander are at some kind of nursery IIRC.

sorry! That was in response to @BeaLola and @Prestissimo

Just to clarify I don't agree with Chelsea's actions - very serious situation - but my boop for Russ was for the way he handled it and particularly reminded Freddie of the 2nd chance he was afforded after his prison stint for drugs

Agreed on all points. Kathy was a teacher but gave up to run the Bull with Sid. Not sure we've ever had one since until Russ.

I've banged on about this before but I never let that stop me. Umpteen years ago when Roy and Hayley were married, or heading that way, they rented one floor of Nightingale Farm from Mrs Antrobus, to whom they became very close, as she lived on the other floor. She was a very elderly childless widow with no close family. I've always felt the SWs missed a trick there. It wouldn't have stretched credulity for Mrs Antrobus to leave Nightingale Farm to the Tuckers, and they could have turned it into a day nursery. Hayley was a qualified nursery nurse working as a nanny and Roy had a Business Studies degree. It would have been a fantastic hub for people to meet in a totally realistic way.

But no. NF went to distant relatives and Roy and Hayley were only able to buy a home eventually because Roy's Dad Mike gave them half of his house and they took out a mortgage to pay for the conversion. Roy ploughed on with his lowly Assistant Manager jobs at GG and LL and Hayley also worked at LL running children's play activities, until Elizabeth had an affair with Roy and Hayley divorced Roy and moved back to Brum. I miss Hayley. She was a good character.

(And then, of course, they did do a rich person does nice thing for poor people storyline but spectacularly unrealistically - Oliver handed Grange Farm over to the Grundy clan for a peppercorn rent and now lives there with them in one room! Really? )

Russ was very good on a previous occasion with Freddy , can't remember the exact details, but it was well done. He's also given Tracey and Chelsea support on educational matters.

Goodness knows what the script writers are doing with Chelsea but hopefully this might put her back on track.

Yup, there’s a huge Hayley-shaped gap in character / profession in the village.

Do not start me off on Scumbag’s behaviour towards Freddie …

Maybe there are teachers who live in Ambridge but are so busy with their work that they don't socialize much.
There isn't much in the way of NHS employees either, other than a midwife and a physio.

I’m not too crazy about praising Russ for sticking up for Chelsey. His relationship with Lily rather endorses grooming and though he probably isn’t targeting C next as she doesn’t have sufficient means to be of interest, I am sure he is not blind to her physical attractions. I’m not sure why everyone - including Freddy now - seem to overlook the fact he is actually a freeloading sleazeball.

If Rochelle is really dead I would be very sad for Joy. That would make a tragic SL and an excellent twist so likely to be way beyond the imagination of the current SWs.

New thread! Bit early, but I can't take the Aw, Snap! messages any longer. www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4609862-archers-thread-138-two-new-stars-on-the-ambridge-firmament-but-will-peggys-retirement-leave-a-black-hole-join-us-here-for-a-window-on-the-archers

@MereDintofPandiculation , and others the shwa doesn't apply in Welsh, e and a do not change if the stress isn't on the syllable. Seren isn't pronounced Serrun, because it doesn't work in Welsh - there is no way of writing the Serrun sound, cf. why Gwilym isn't Gwillum.

If someone introduced herself as Gwenan or Nia, would you refer to her as Gwenun or Nee-uh because saying Gwenan or Nia would make you sound like a pretentious knob? If so WHY???

If Tom had married a spanish woman (let's call her Miriam) and they'd had two boys and decided to call them Antonio and Alberto, would he be a pretentious knob if he used his wife's pronunciation of the names? It would be strange to hear Clarrieluv saying the names without saying Al-bert-oh and An-tony-oh.

I know I go on about it which is why I have tagged it on to the end of a thread but I find it offensive to hear criticism of Welsh words and names being pronounced correctly.

Joy rhymes with Oi where come from.

Thanks @WhoppingBigBackside
FSC place on Llanrwst Road, Betws-y-Coed' perhaps But that would need me to be able to pronounce “Betws-y-coed”. “Bettuss-er-Coid” is what it’s sounded like to my ear (in conversation with apparent locals with Welsh accents who I presume are pronouncing it correctly). And let’s not go near Llan

Rhyd-y-creuau - so the “u” is what another language would show as a (short) i, so you have eh-i as “ey” and ah-i = “eye”?

Relieved to have had Bala right. But the I’ve always said castle not carstle.

the Es in Gwen and Seren are the same, stressed or unstressed. I never suggested they werent! It was the English I was talking about. In English you’d say “ten”, but “kittun” not “kitten”. So to an English speaker, logical (but wrong) to say “Serun”, but you wouldn’t dream of saying “Gwun”, no more than you’d say “tun” for “ten”.

@MereDintofPandiculation , the w in Betws is like a very short oo. Like the o in to but not long like the oo in too. If you hear to and too as exactly the same, I can't help you. Cwm is pronounced like 'Come' in a mock yorkshire accent and not like Coom/Combe
If you say Betsy Coyd, they'll know where you mean

I think Ll is similar to lch in German, which isn't like l followed by scottish ch. I'd say german milch as meLL

U - no equivalent. The tongue makes a horseshoe shape. In S Wales it sounds more like i (very short ee or i)

Two vowels next to each other form diphthongs and many have no equivalents. There are english sounds that you can't write in welsh and the other way round.

Ten and Kitten sound different because one becomes a schwa. If the words were welsh Kitten would be KIT-enn, not Kitt-n
You get welsh women called Helen - and they say it as HELL-enn not Hellun or Hellin. Elen is ELL-enn not Ellun

As I pp, the arguments on the 'welsh' threads are usually between Welsh-speakers and non-Welsh speakers, who will argue with you that Mair is pronounced My-uh because they know someone from Fishguard who says it that way, or that (non-Welsh speaker) Dylan Thomas said his name as Dillun. Part of the reason I kicked off on here is because of the stereotyping on TA. I'm not sure how much Welsh the Caitlin actress can speak, but she sounds very welsh because she's from Port Talbot. She was on a tv show about 10 years ago and said she couldn't speak it then. Mispronouncing a popular name should not have happened. It's as basic as getting William wrong. She wouldn't have referred to herself as Grandma. She turned up with welsh cakes, they had a cwtsh and a sing song and excluded someone in conversation.

I mind that british-pakistani Adil has a british-indian accent and that they say his name as Ardil, but it doesn't quite grate in the same way. It strikes me as ignorant, but it doesn't offend me like the welsh stereotyping does.

Tom should have taken Natsha's surname when they got married

@WhoppingBigBacksideTen and Kitten sound different because one becomes a schwa. If the words were welsh Kitten would be KIT-enn, not Kitt-nYes,that’s what I was saying. An unstressed e usually becomes a schwa in English, but a stressed (which by default a one syllable word is) cannot.So going back to your original statement that it’s no more logical to have a schwa in Seren than in Gwen, which nobody does - in English it is totally logical to have a schwa in Seren and not in Gwen.

Short oo is what I was trying to indicate by Betuss.

Thanks for sticking with me! I tried learning Welsh once, but struggled, and when they started teaching Russian at work, I dropped Welsh and took the easier option
Beginning to toy with the idea of starting again. I’m not a natural with languages. I don’t have a good ear.

I have an English husband. I am Scottish, our son has a Scottish middle name (think Alastair, not a Gaelic one).

We live in England. I’d find it totally cringey if either my son or my husband put on Scottish vowels and attempted to use a rhotic R to say his/his son’s name. It would be almost like a piss take of my accent. To me that is what Tom is doing with Seren.

(Yes I know I know that Alastair is an anglicisation of a Gaelic name, my point is that the name does not have a Gaelic spelling)

@HaveringWavering , You mean if your DS was something like Ruairidh or Raibeart, you'd be offended if your DH attempted to get the pronunciation right?

I'd probably find a mangling offensive, but not if they got it spot on. I think you'd need to affect a scottish accent to get them right.

The thing with Tom is that he actually says the Welsh word for star correctly, and I don't hear a put-on welsh accent. The word is welsh, so why should he say it in an anglicised way. He doesn't mimic Natasha saying it.

I just find it all weird. How am I meant to say Bury - town up north and word for inter? Am I a pretentious knob if I say 'My friends live in Bury' (using the way they say it) or if I use the way I'd normally say to bury someone?. Am I a pretentious knob for saying schadenfreude and not shahdun-froy-duh? If Natasha was norwegian and they'd called their daughter Freyja should Tom say Freyja in an english accent?

Am I a twat for saying Sartre as one syllable, using the french r? Should I say it as Sah-tchruh?

“If Natasha was norwegian and they'd called their daughter Freyja should Tom say Freyja in an english accent?”

Yes. My FIL is Norwegian and MIL is English. Even FIL says SIL’s name the way the English do. (DH has an English name). MIL would sound ridiculous saying SIL’s name Norwegian style, except when she is speaking Norwegian to her own MIL (she is not fluent but speaks a bit).

“You mean if your DS was something like Ruairidh or Raibeart, you'd be offended if your DH attempted to get the pronunciation right?”

I am not a Gaelic speaker myself so I have no idea how to pronounce those names correctly. Let’s say our son was called Mark. I’d say it “Marrk” with a short A and a rolled R. DH would say “Maahk”. Nobody would bat an eyelid as it’s such a universal name. Now replace that scenario with the name being “Lachlan”. Your approach would be that DH should always try to say the guttural “ch” as it is a Scottish name and that is how a Scot would say it. It take the “he’d sound like a twat, Lacklan, is fine by me stance.”