Disappointment our third child can’t join her siblings at the same school

[sopae]

We have two kids at a selective school in London. It is very competitive to get in to. Both kids sat the 4+ and have been there since reception and are doing really well. We have just found out that our third has not been accepted for reception next year. I am so sad that she can’t join her siblings.

I don’t blame the school, obviously they have to draw a line and we chose to put them all in for 4+. I also know it is a ridiculous age to try and assess. She won’t even be 4 until the summer and is developmentally a completely normal 3 year old. She can try again at 7+. But I am still heartbroken that she will have at least three years separate to the others, and her siblings are so disappointed too.

Anyone else have this experience and can help me put some perspective on it. I know there are bigger issues but right now I am feeling so sad about it.

Yes? I’m not sure if you’ve misunderstood my post. I quoted and replied to a poster who suggested the OP should not post on mumsnet but should find a private school discussion forum instead, I was just pointing out that this is a private school forum.

Yes I don’t understand why people judge and complain about private schools in the private school forum - find it bizarre! Like I don’t go into the dieting forum and judge people for asking for advice on which meds to take to lose weight

As I said, it wasn't clear that it was in the private school forum. There'll be others that have posted with different views and experiences too that didn't realise either, so I'm not sure what's so hard to understand that people haven't "gone into the forum to judge."
Just as you're going to get opinions saying that it's fine to test 4 year olds and basically compete against their siblings, others aren't going to agree.
You can't expect an echo chamber when you put a controversial opinion out there.

I think that if you are looking for perspective, you might one day look back with a wry smile when no3 turns out to be the academic one!

Interesting that some posters are complaining about dissenting views being aired because this is the private school forum. Is it only state school parents who object to testing 3 and 4 year olds and who have misgivings about treating one child very differently to their siblings? I know plenty of people who have sent their children to independent schools who would have strong views on both those matters. As is often pointed out, private schools vary enormously and so do the people who use them. Why the assumption that the posters suggesting that the OP rethinks have no experience of independent schools?

Jesus fucking wept.

They might as well put a sign above the door of these schools that says "no autistics need apply".

A child of three or four who is led away from its parents by a total stranger without complaint is ripe for abduction by every paedophile in a 50 mile radius. The desire of very small people to stick with mum and dad is protective and should not be pathologised.

How have people never heard of the 4+, probably the same ones who declare private schools to be a bubble with no knowledge of how others live.

I'm northern with kids at state school and know how cut throat the London 4+ admissions can be!

Bloody hell, while I broadly agree with you, what an offensive comment about 'half-arsed state primary schools.' It's bloody hard to be 'half-arsed,' when working with children. I've worked in and with a number of schools and it's not an adjective I would use to describe any of them, even the ones that were arguably the least effective. If they're in an area of social deprivation the very last thing they will be will be half-arsed, even if the focus doesn't seem to be on academics.

I haven't read the whole thread, but as a newly qualified teacher I worked at an independent school which assessed for both Nursery (3+) and Reception (4+) entry. It wasn't a formal assessment at all but more of a test of school readiness. Were they able to continue a conversation, share a book and comment on what they'd heard, hold a pencil, play cooperatively with others, follow instructions, that sort of thing. It was just a 'visit' to the setting where they largely played and we assessed very discreetly. And it made for a lovely pre-prep environment with bright and eager children who were ready to learn. So the horror about 4+ assessments is a bit OTT. However we would definitely have been flexible about younger siblings who didn't quite make the (obviously very subjective) cut, particularly if Summer born.

I've spent the rest of my career in state schools and it's... different 🤣

You've taken my tongue in cheek comment to be a serious description! I was trying (and clearly failing) to roll my eyes at whatever it is about going to your local school that parents who involve themselves in 4+ processes are afraid of.

My children all go/went to our designated catchment schools, including the one that was RI, and including the unfashionable ones that are undersubscribed.

I have never not been on the PTA and spend hours of every week volunteering and helping out. I am under no illusions as to the huge amount of unsung work that goes on in state schools.

I am very very glad my dc have been able to be part of their local communities whilst not experiencing self esteem damaging selection processes, and yet got the brilliant grades they are capable of.

What does a selective primary school deliver by the way? Is it manly about making it easier to get into a selective secondary school?

I’m in a couple of minds about this. Quite a few people have expressed horror at the idea of a 4+ assessment … but rightly or wrongly this school has one. I don’t know the school but quite a few explicitly say that they have no sibling policy.

It won’t feel good to have your youngest child not get through. However, I do know a few families where the youngest child was admitted and then didn’t thrive - and was asked to leave. That must feel so much worse than them not getting in in the first place.

It is up to the OP whether she chooses to withdraw her sons from the school. It doesn’t sound as though she wants to do this and, if it is the sort of London school I suspect, they will have a waiting list and will fill the spots quickly. The well known London schools don’t struggle to fill their places.

I “failed” my 4+ and eventually went to Oxford and the Bar (with scholarships). The star of that Reception year dropped out at 16 (in the days before you had to stay until 18) which shocked everyone. She married a policeman, raised 3 kids in a very happy, stable marriage, and worked as a TA. I’d say that is a “success” by any viewpoint, but my point is at 4 nobody could tell with either of us but yes I 100% knew I was being tested (because my friends and teachers told me, not my mother) and for years I was convinced I was the “thick” one. OP, I know your post isn’t about the 4+ but for some of us, that’s what stood out.

Hmmm my better half was a deputy head at one of these schools. Firstly, no one believes in the 4+. The whole thing is a designed to grow revenue by pressuring parents to opt into private school for the early years knowing that the likelihood of gaining a place decreases at 7+, 11+, and 13+ as the # of applicants increases and the # places reduces. Only really works in London where demand significantly outstrips supply for these types of school.

As for not passing the 4+, assuming your 3rd wasn't at nursery there, you can ask as many questions as you like but you'll never get an answer because no one has the faintest idea what they're assessing. It's all smoke and mirrors. If your 3rd was at nursery there, the assessment was an illusion designed to demonstrate a meritocratic assessment but in reality, either a/ they want your family out the school (probably unlikely) b/ they genuinely think you child wouldn't be suited to it (still ridiculous at 4yo unless obvious learning difficulties): or c/ the person assessing and marking didn't realise they were assessing the youngest of 3 siblings at the school.

I have 3 children, my second failed his 4+. We called it a day and moved out of London. My children are noticeably lest anxious and academically they're doing exponentially better outside of the hot house London environment. Ironically, they'll probably be in a position to apply to the most academic schools at 11 and 13 if we choose to do that.

Your situation is complicated by the fact that you have older children already in the school. Personally, I think these hot house preps are an abomination. They destroy children's personalities, riddle them anxiety, and they spend their earliest years formally comparing themselves to each other. My other half spent the majority of her time dealing with completely fu**ed up teenagers and they all almost exclusively had this type of start in life.The whole thing is a completely insane bubble and the moment you break out of it, the better.

What is the 4 plus? I have never heard of it.

My children both have significant special needs and require specialist provision....some perspective fir you....

Here is this year’s thread about the 4+ process:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/primary/5339896-4-assessments-2025

I was shocked to recently discover friends were having their younger children tutored for 7+

I think selective assessments at that age are highly questionable

I’m not even keen on electing at age 10/11

to hear there’s a selective test at age 4 is simply preposterous. Genuinely can’t believe this is a thing

In some countries (e.g. Finland) they don’t even start school until age 7.

I met someone in Islington who was paying for tutoring of their child who was age 2. I wish I was joking.

That’s interesting. Did they say what the tutor covered?

It has been many years since the 4+ and we didn’t tutor. Stuff that can help are things like getting the child to ask for things in shops, pay with money and collect change (difficult if the shops near you won’t take cash). Being able to have a cheerful exchange with an adult you don’t know well.

One thing that did come up (years ago) was asking a child to draw a person.

One friend who did tutor said that the tutor would read her daughter the first half of a story then shut the book and ask what she thought happened next.

I know that on MN there seem to be lots of children who can read mega early but I wouldn’t expect a 4+ tutor to teach phonics or reading. Having said that, I remember my son coming out of The Hall assessment and telling me that he hadn’t known all his letters.

It’s common. These tutors ensure basic phonics good, encourage them to “spontaneously” read out of the storybook, be chatty, leave their parents without a backwards glance.. The poster above who described that as “teachable” is spot on.

My kids are at one of the top prep schools in the country with many friends’ children at other similar preps but the idea of a 4+ is ludicrous to me. We aren’t in London admittedly.

FWIW our school has a 100% CE pass record for over 30 years, excellent ISEB results and very high number of academic scholarships to top public schools each year, so it’s plenty academic enough.

Is it a selective fee-paying school?

If so threaten to remove your others, they will absolutely consider your youngest in that instance

We have people asking for tutors for 4 year olds in our area... It's mad .

No they won’t they’ll fill the spaces from the waiting list they won’t care