Primary School punch - AIBU?

[MovingMad87]

DD is in Year 1 (6 years old). A few days ago, I got a call from her school saying she had been punched in the face by a boy in her class, leaving her with a bleeding nose. Awful.

The school explained that DD had been trying to stop this boy from grabbing her friend by the neck. She asked him to stop and told him he should apologise. In response, he punched her. The school suspended him for a day before half-term as a result.

This boy has a history of violent behaviour; scratching, kicking, and punching other children. The school is aware of the issue but as of now haven't really done anything about it.

A few weeks ago, I overheard DDs form tutor telling a parent that their child had a bad day. The teacher had bruises down her leg from being kicked by a different child. While that wasn't the same boy, it reinforced my growing concern that this level of violence is being normalised in the classroom. When I asked DD about it, she wasn't even particularly shocked; apparently, incidents like this happen all the time.

Now, I'm thinking I need to move my child to another school. Possibly private, but I'd rather explore good state school options first. I'll hear what the school has to say in the meeting, but for me, a punch in the face is a red line. A 6-year-old should not be dealing with this. Either the school removes this child, or we leave.

AIBU? Would you move your child?

You cannot report to OFSTED unless you have followed the school’s complaints policy. Until you have done that they will simply return your complaints back to the school. Complaining to the DfE is stage 4 but you have to go through the rest. The school website should have a copy of the complaint policy on it for you. Follow that.

It makes me feel a bit on edge about my own DD now as even though she's in a different school and in reception, I know what it's like and I know there are some characters like this in her class. There's also a couple of said characters' parents I overhear at drop off talking about their children's behaviour and every excuse under the sun comes out. I know if one of their children hurt mine they most likely wouldn't bat an eyelid.

You have to protect your child at all costs and do what you need to do. The unfortunate truth is that it is happening everywhere.

OFSTED will also look at the number of suspensions/exclusions in a school when carrying out an inspection. They won’t look too favourably on a school that has a high number of them

This must be the 10th thread in recent weeks on here regarding violence amongst very young kids. Each thread has so many posters talking about how their own child has been hurt.

I’m not sure what the answer is as we all know schools will very rarely remove a child for more than a day or two. What I am certain of, is that I’ll teach my kid to hit back. Harder and faster than whoever hit them first. Not in a million years would I tolerate black eyes, burst noses etc. I’m sure I’ll get 20 “Oh so you’ll fight violence with violence. That’s the answer, great parent!” replies to this, but I frankly couldn’t care less.

Anyone touches my child, I’ll make sure my boy knows how to stop them from ever doing it again.

Yes a percentage of kids have SEN, but that’s an issue for the school/parents/LA to sort out, it’s not mine or my child’s issue. Nobody should expect to be a punching bag for anyone else.

Permanent exclusion is a long and expensive process, schools have to prove they have tried every route possible

There are indeed schools like that - but it’s schools where parents have a good grip on behaviour IMO.

It’s also massively cohort dependent. My DD had one kid in her year who was eventually excluded for violence, but my DS has sailed through (touch wood) as the cohort in his year is very different.

If it can be shown that a school has not put in reasonable adjustments for a child with needs which could prevent certain behaviours then an exclusion could be treated as discriminatory and therefore unlawful.

Problem is schools can’t afford many of these reasonable adjustments

And I am incredibly frustrated with people saying “oh, the school just isn’t meeting that other kid’s needs, they should just try harder”. It’s unreasonable for schools to manage that level of violence. They absolutely shouldn’t have to.

I also agree that if anyone ever socked the violent kid back, it would stop far more rapidly.

My daughter is autistic and there’s no chance she could retaliate. We have taught her as much self defence as we can, but there’s a limit to what she’s capable of. I do worry for sure now that she’s in high school.

my son does taekwando and knows how to defend himself. We always tell him not to initiate, but to be prepared to protect himself if needed. We live in a city with all the associated strengths and weaknesses of this choice so as he gets older there’s more likeliness of him needing to know this.

This sounds like my class too. I have two children out of that who really should not be in a mainstream school but there are no places at any specialist provision for them

Agree, in our experience once DC retaliated with a similar punch it was interesting to see how quickly they were left alone! Wonder if all victims practiced the 'don't initiate anything, but absolutely defend yourself' if this would all come to a close.

Yeah, I understand the “hit back” idea isn’t suited to everyone (even without additional needs, it’s just not in some people’s nature). I can imagine how worried you are for when she’s older. 😕

I think I’ll be going down the TKD/boxing type route too, with my son. Give him all the skills he needs to defend himself. I think generally that most kids don’t try with a classmate who goes to MMA classes, as it’s a given that they’ll get a hiding if they do. Though I bet there’s always one chancer who wants to try their luck!

It's not their behaviour policy which governs this, it's government guidance on exclusion. It's not necessarily as easy as you think. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/66be0d92c32366481ca4918a/Suspensions_and_permanent_exclusions_guidance.pdf

This is becoming very common. YANBU in the slightest but the conversation overheard by the teacher (“he had a bad day”) sounds like there is already an ongoing conversation between the parents and schools. People always say “everyone jumps to SEN” but the reality is that most of the time, the children behaving this way do have SEN and there is little the school can do about their violent behaviour. It’s becoming a real problem; the government need to sort out the SEN provision as we can’t just keep accepting violence.

(I’m not saying all children with SEN are violent, by the way. I’m saying that the children who do repeatedly behave like this often are and it is difficult for the school to visibly “deal with it” in the way that other parents would like to see.)

I used to work in a school like this. The absolute chocolate teapots in SLT used to honestly just hug it out with problem kids 🙄. So shit. I now work in state secondary and it is much better as there is some actual discipline/consequences*. When my colleagues go to the primary I worked in to to transition days, they're always horrified by the kids and the lack of action by any of the teaching staff.

My kids go to Catholic school and it's quite strict. I love it. The kids feel safe there as this sort of shit is not tolerated.

I'm actually wondering if your dd's school is in the same group op...you aren't around Clapham/Balham/Wandsworth by any chance?

*even still, it is difficult to exclude kids, especially is there is any social services involvement or SEN

@Convolvulus not sure if you'd know but is it a funding thing? That they don't want to fund schools to manage these behaviours or is it in the 'best interests' of the violent child?

I am very sorry this happened to your DD, its unacceptable.
However, it is very very difficult to expel any child now, I sit on exclusion panels and we have just managed to PX a 9 year old who has been violent since YR. There have been over 20 incidents since last September alone
The childs mother has just taken it to review (at a cost of around £4000 for the school)
Even when schools want to expel a violent child quite often their hands are tied.

If Private is affordable IME they can expel very easily if they want to.

Schools don’t get enough funding. Outside organisations don’t get enough funding. There are insufficient places in specialist schools.

Schools have to be inclusive and can’t be seen to be discriminatory

I’ve only skimmed over most of the linked guidance a few posts above (as it’s about 80 pages long) but it does look like the process for suspensions and exclusions is quite clear.

It seems like if schools are robust, use temporary exclusions where appropriate, keep meticulous records, engage with parents and follow the due processes, they have a case for exclusion in cases where there is just no improvement in behaviour and kids remain at risk.

As someone has just written - schools are using a gentle, “hug it out” approach. Maybe that’s part of the reason exclusions are so rare - because none of the previous steps are taken and documented, so there is no case to put forward.

As someone in a knowledgable position, why is it so hard to expel them? Can you give any examples of reasons that the panel declines to expel?

This is it. People seem to think it’s like a work place. If someone did that at work then it would be instant dismissal no questions asked.
However excluding a child from school is incredibly difficult to do. It’s not just ‘home you go, laddie.’

All this ‘report to OFSTED’ idea as well. When a school gets an OFSTED inspection the number of exclusions is high up the list of things they look at.

‘More sway’ … I think you’ve misunderstood.
even private schools have to work with equality laws related to disabilities (maybe the child has a diagnosis) and follow procedures, work with the council etc. they can’t just chuck him out. He’s 6.

however, school has lots of options and should be doing many things they are able to tell you about and some they are not. For instance, if this child cannot be safely on the playground they should be having their playtime elsewhere. If there is violence in the classroom staff should be trained in physical interventions etc.

@Kibble29 it’s not just if schools keep meticulous records (although this is very important as suspensions/exclusions can be overturned for incomplete records) but they need to show interventions have been put in place, reasonable adjustments have been made if a child is on SEN register (and many children are on SEN register)

That is why documents for suspension/exclusion panels can run to hundreds of pages.

@MrsElijahMikaelson1 we will go through the school complaints procedure first