Should girls and boys at age 8+ (Yr 4) be changing for PE together?

[Jules2]

My DD (aged 9.5yrs) has recently told me she feels a bit embarrassed having to change for PE in front of the boys in her class. I hadn't given the matter a thought until she raised it. It's not as if she has much to 'conceal' and she certainly doesn't come from a prudish family - I guess it's just the age she and her peers are at now. There are some quite developed girls in her year and some Muslim girls and boys (but I imagine they just stay in their regular clothes). I'm told the policy is the same for all years - even Yr 6. I mentioned it to the deputy head and this was her response:

''It is school policy to require all the children to change in the same room as this is the means by which the teacher can fulfil their safeguarding duties by monitoring any signs of potential neglect/abuse. We advise any children who are becoming a little self-conscious to wear a t-shirt top which does not need to be removed and, if necessary, their shorts under their clothes.''
I'd be interested to hear from parents and teachers about how this is handled in their schools. Is this a common school policy throughout the UK? It seems not to take into account the feelings of the children and is not very practical - e.g. the idea of wearing shorts under your school clothes on a warm/any day - not very comfortable!
Incidentally, my DD's teacher is male and so is the TA who takes PE and is also present when they change. I don't have an issue with this but it seems a bit odd to think they (or any teachers) are 'monitoring' , i.e. looking at children while they change.

I don't think anyone has said that schools have refused to take individual needs into consideration ( perhaps I missed it ) just that in most schools children get changed together? As I said our older girls have choice of changing in a walk in cupoard - some do some don't their choice and I'm afraid not every school has a TA to borrow Hulababy

As said before, I do know of two schools where this WAS happening. I know a parent who had to go and speak about it at one of these schools because the teacher would not take the need of the child into consideration.

Even if a school doesn't have a spare TA they still have to find a some form of solution surely? You say you have, and that is fine - so long a there is some form of solution for these children.

I have never heard of a primary school where boys and girls change together in the Juniors. The girls usually goof and change in the cloakroom or toilets, within earshot.They don't need an extra TA

What concerns me is that EIGHT YEAR OLD girls are being bought adult style bras! It scared me when I was a teenager working for La Senza, and it scares me more as an adult. Despite growing boobs at eight, I didn't get my first bra shaped bra until I started secondary school. Mum sent me to primary in a crop top/sports bra. And yes, people noticed under my school blouse, so I wore a polo shirt instead. But getting changed wasn't a problem, shorts went on first under the skirt/summer dress and then I either took the top half straight off, or did the t-shirt on, pull the polo shirt out of the neck hole trick that saved me in secondary school.

If you child's underwear is revealing, perhaps buying them some less see-through underwear would be a good start?

(By the way, all girls changing rooms at secondary school are a living hell)

If a child has reached the age of being self conscious about being undressed or in their underwear, then that should be respected.And before someone starts bleating about 'hang ups' , it is not the same thing at all, it is just a growing awareness and maturity

Seryph - surely it is a much better thing for developing girls to wear underwear which is designed to support their new shape, not hide it under little girl vests?

At our primary, all children change together in all years including Y5/6. Most girls by Y6 are developing, and a significant minority have started their periods. Both my dd's have hated group changing, even though they didn't have early puberty.

I also hate the fact that my dd's feel they have to wear a vest on PE days in the heat of the summer. They are not developed enough for a bra, but don't want to remove their summer dress in front of the boys. On days when they have forgotten their vest, they have been mortified.

Wouldn't you wear a sports bra for sport Hulababy rather than a revealing little number?

In dd's primary - which was a shit school - the boys changed in the cloakroom (corridor in y6) with the TA overseeing, and the girls changed in the classroom with the teacher overseeing. This from year 3 on. I'm shocked that there are any schools which think it is OK for girls and boys to be changing together.

Ive just asked my two and yr5 get changed separately (two form entry so all girls in one class and all boys in another) but yr3 get changed together. And in front of the windows at 3.10 with lots of waving of half dressed children to parents in the playground below

If my DD has developed breasts, then surely she should be wearing sports bras for PE/Games? She would need somewhere to change into those. Breast tissue needs adequate appropriate support to prevent damage.

We are very fortunate as DD's school has changing rooms, so the juniors change separately from the start. That said, there is a girl in DD's year that does not do games as she is too embarrassed to change in front of her classmates (Y3)

I think it is a good policy to get year 6, maybe even year 5 children, changing seperately to get ready for secondary school when everyone will start going through puberty - it's important to have appropriate personal boundaries set up before then.

However, I don't see the point in segregating entirely pre-pubescent children before then. I actually think it could do more harm than good. Children aged 4-8 have no reason to be body conscious (with some exceptions, I imagine) other than the reasons we try and force on them.

mrz - I have never had a sports bra tbh, but also not tiny revealing things either.

Do you think tiny revealing things are appropriate for children in primary school?

That was sort of my point Mrz. Why should an ten year old have a strappy bra? Certainly very ten year old girl I have ever met needs far more support than that.

Hulababy, why does it have to be a "little girl vest"? I wear a vest all day every day. Granted I would call it a camisole or a strappy top, but that's all vests are. Mine even has a support shelf (though those are normally no use on my 36Fs). In the summer I still wear one, just with an open shirt over the top.

I'm not saying that by yr 6 it's not a good idea to separate the genders, but I do understand that it can be a nightmare and teachers shouldn't get shouted at for it. And why should the poor boys have to change outside, they have to strip down to just their pants too, some of them will have body hair, and of course rouge erections.

Mn is a funny old place. Threads about not wanting to send an 8yr old boy off on their own to the male changing rooms at local swimming pools are met with pure vitriol and full of 'my dd is entitled to her privacy' comments. But expecting a bit of privacy at school is apparently unreasonable .

Exactly velvet

I think people are being picky on purpose.
We are not talking of tiny little things. But we are talking about proper bras rather than a vest or crop top. And doesn't all the bra interventionist stuff etc recommend young girls wearing proper fitted bras from as soon as they need them for decent support etc

It also recommends sports bras when participating in sport Hulababy

Even if wearing a sports bra I doubt they'd want to have in front of boys either. They are still fairly revealing compared to a vest. And I I they shouldn't have to.

But then mrz - you say your y6s have the option not to anyway. So not sure why you are arguing against me tbh. My argument is that some schools DO make y5/6 girls and boys change in front of each other and that they should not have to if they feel uncomfortable about it.

I'm trying to point out that teachers aren't being awkward that there are logistical reasons why schools can't send large groups off unsupervised and why most primary schools weren't built to accommodate separate changing areas. I'm also pointing out that with a little effort on both sides it's more than possible to get changed without revealing more than you would at the beach or pool.
As seryph said pull on shorts before removing skirt and a vest top worn on PE days protects modesty.

But I already know what schools are like and the logistics. I've worked in schools for years. But I also know that it is something that schools should be sorting out and making it possible. And some schools are not doing this yet.

Where do you suggest schools find the cash, space and staff to do something about?

For us - Y5 - although it is >1 form entry all classes have PE at differen times so there is no possibility of using a class for girls / class for boys approach. All cloakrooms - as in pegs for coats etc - are in the corridors, which due to the design of the school are in constant use. The school accommodates over 50% more children than it was originally designed for, so space for anything is a huge luxury, although the classrooms themselves are large.

There is the option for any child feeling uncomfortable to change in the toilets. However, what is usually used are the 'usual physical barriers' within the classroom - desks and chairs. Children are divided into boys and girls on opposite sides of the classroom, and then tend to sit down behind our very solid desks for any stage of changing that is in any way revealing. Others take advantage of space around bookshelves etc. I have trained my class to change to a slow ... but not very slow... count of 10, so there isn't any time at all for children to stand and stare. I absolutely agree it isn't idea. But without vey significant building work it is the best we can manage.

mrz:

Cash isn't necessary.
Space - as many people have said, a folding screen or something takes up hardly any room.
Staff - Helpers/volunters/parents/work placement students come in all the time in most primary schools. Even if they are in a different year they can be diverted up to the top year for 5 mins to supervise.
Other solutions: Two years doing PE together so boys can change in one room and girls in another. Or, PE can be timetabled to be last lesson, so children don't have to change at all if they don't want to. Or, children can just wear joggers or more adaptable clothing on PE days.

With a little creative thinking, it should be possible for the vast majority of schools to adapt something.

However, sorry to be rude, but you seem to embody the 'can't be bothered if I can get away with it,' school of thinking that several posters here have mentioned at their schools. The point is, it shouldn't be up to children to have to make specific requests because they are embarrassed. I could imagine it being horrifically excruciating for a 10 year old girl to have to ask her (possibly male) teacher if she can change in the toilets because she's on her period/doesn't want the boys to see her bra/is teased for having leg hair, etc.

Schools have a duty of pastoral care to children, and this includes acknowledging that today's children are going through puberty earlier than previous generations, and have a right to their privacy if they want it.

If the age for children to go into gender-specific changing rooms at swimming pools, etc, is 8, then why shouldn't this be enforced at schools too?