Should girls and boys at age 8+ (Yr 4) be changing for PE together?

[Jules2]

My DD (aged 9.5yrs) has recently told me she feels a bit embarrassed having to change for PE in front of the boys in her class. I hadn't given the matter a thought until she raised it. It's not as if she has much to 'conceal' and she certainly doesn't come from a prudish family - I guess it's just the age she and her peers are at now. There are some quite developed girls in her year and some Muslim girls and boys (but I imagine they just stay in their regular clothes). I'm told the policy is the same for all years - even Yr 6. I mentioned it to the deputy head and this was her response:

''It is school policy to require all the children to change in the same room as this is the means by which the teacher can fulfil their safeguarding duties by monitoring any signs of potential neglect/abuse. We advise any children who are becoming a little self-conscious to wear a t-shirt top which does not need to be removed and, if necessary, their shorts under their clothes.''
I'd be interested to hear from parents and teachers about how this is handled in their schools. Is this a common school policy throughout the UK? It seems not to take into account the feelings of the children and is not very practical - e.g. the idea of wearing shorts under your school clothes on a warm/any day - not very comfortable!
Incidentally, my DD's teacher is male and so is the TA who takes PE and is also present when they change. I don't have an issue with this but it seems a bit odd to think they (or any teachers) are 'monitoring' , i.e. looking at children while they change.

I think mrz makes a very good point. And not at all sneery AA.

No AA I'm a parent who took her children to the beach on holiday and to the local pool for swimming lessons where they wore swimming costumes in public and even took my daughter to gymnastics where she appeared in public wearing a leotard.

I can't see what is sneery about that.

Mrz - spot on. It's not like they are taking pants off. All get changed in classroom at our place up to year 6. But if any of them feel uncomfortable they just take themselves off to the loos. No space for changing rooms or for all kids to change in the loos. It works. Not ideal but it works. Kids find ways to be modest and to be honest and, quite frankly, they are all too busy chatting to make a big deal out of it.

I think bathing suits are different than underwear. The fabric is thicker, they are often lined. Also, most kids don't go swimming with their class (I know some schools must do, but not at ours. Just a few weeks for the non-swimmers in year 3 before the awkward stage begins.) The social understanding of bathing suits vs. underwear is understood by the children.

I was a late bloomer and my daughters seem to be as well which is a relief. However, there are definitely girls who are very developed by 10 or 11 years old. This is not something that they can control. Not respecting their dignity or privacy seems cruel to me. Making a big show of letting them change somewhere else while the rest of the class just gets on with it would be just as bad for them, I think.

In my mind, the sensitive and sensible thing to do would be to split up changing from year 5 onwards. Slightly inconvenient for the adults who have to manage it, but just one of those things that has to be done. This seems like one of those situations where TAs come in handy.

Haven't read the whole thread, but my 9.5 yr old dd deserves and needs her privacy. My dh and myself respect that, so I would expect the school to.

I would be raising the issue with the Governors, and give consideration to withdrawing her from pe in the meantime.

I think it's a very serious issue.

Btw my dd gets changed in the changing room or library, while the boys change in the classroom.

Even in an all female swimming changing room, she prefers to use a separate cubicle.

" Also, most kids don't go swimming with their class (I know some schools must do, but not at ours." assume it's not a state school as swimming is part of the NC.

Do vests and pants reveal more than a swim suit?

But changing is not like it is for Mr Benn.

It's not a case of starting with one body concealing outfit, and miraculously morphing into another body concealing outfit.

Changing involves dropped towels, rucked up vests, unintentional displays, and undignified exposures.

Well, it does for me, and I've been practising for 40 years.....

It boils down to space. They generally can't go in the library - someone is in it. The toilets are not big enough. In my experience schools that separate them have to put the boys in the corridor- which is not ideal. I don't know any who separate before year 5- there is no need.
They are very discrete, I think it far better to be under supervision in one room, than out of supervision in various odd spots.
Where do people think they will go? Who do you think can supervise the half that go out? How do you get a room divider across a room that can't divide easily?

I don't think boys changing in the corridor is appropriate either since they too deserve privacy.

It's tricky, isn't it?

My dd isn't supervised all the time as she changes.All I can think is that the boys wait in the corridor while the girls change then the girls go to do pe as the boys change- and reversal at the end of the session.

No easy answers, but I think it's really important that an answer of some sort is found.

As a teacher I have once had a parent raise a concern about this in yr 4. I checked with my Head and the County PE advisor. Both confirmed that shared changing at year 4 is perfectly fine.

I put girls at one end of the room and boys at the other end.

I have once had a girl who was well developed in year 4. She simply, quietly, took herself off to the toilets to get changed. Most of the class didn't even notice that she did that.

The vast majority of year 4 girls are not yet showing any outward signs of puberty.
The vast majority of year 4 children are not self-conscious about getting changed together.
The vast majority of year 4 children are not remotely interested in looking at each others' bodies.

Ds1, yr 5 definitely changes seperately. I think they did on yr 4 aswell. Will ask him when he gets back.
I think ops school policy is very inappropriate.
And anyone else's school where they don't seperately them.

"Do vests and pants reveal more than a swim suit?"

The short answer mrz, is yes. They do.

They are made from different fabric. Swimsuit fabric is thicker and designed to be opaque. Swimsuits are lined. Knickers are generally thin, light coloured cotton fabric and not lined with tricot across the front but rather just a doubling of jersey fabric across the gusset. Result: pubic hair can often be seen through knickers, but not through swimsuits which are designed not to do so. I would have thought a girl of 10 or 11 who has started menstruating would probably be using pads rather than tampons. This would possibly show in her knickers but would not be an issue in your swimming scenario as her family might decide to take the family swimming another day. She doesn't get to set the PE time table in the same way.

Finally, in our culture, bathing suits are accepted in mixed company while underwear is not. I understand the objective argument, but it's just one of those quicks and the children are old enough to understand it.

do you think they get changed together due to a supervision issue and that getting changed is a ripe opportunity for bullying?

I dont agree with it, but i can sort of see why they do it.

The vast majority of year 4 children are not remotely interested in looking at each others' bodies.

^ this

My yr 3 dd is very conscious of her privacy though.

Even if the majority are ok, what about the effects on the minority?

The effects of what though? I really don't get it. However I have only got male DC who weren't bothered so accept I may be seeing this from the wrong angle. They changed for PE and after school clubsh as Karate and football in the classrooms up until Yr4.

They went to Middle School in Year 5-where there were M/F changing rooms.

Well I have 30 children get changed in my classroom every week missinglalaland and none of their underwear reveals anything they shouldn't reveal in public places.

Just the way it feels to be subjected to something you find undignified I suppose, Sparkling.

I reckon there's plenty of women who wouldn't want to change in front of their male colleagues.

Well yes, but these children have been doing it since Reception Class and probably think nothing of it. T

They want to get changed as quickly as possible and get to PE in my experience.

Quite possibly the case then with the majority,

But my concern would be with my dd's who are,
in that case, in the minority.

Can't you see the difference between an adult and child's bodies perhaps the problem is the sexualisation of infants

Why would a Year 3 child finding getting changed for PE 'undignified' where would that have come from?

I remember having to wear pe pants for gymnastics at age 12 and 13. Now that was embarrassing!