The school is making my 4 years old to sing gospels, how to get out of this?

[Lokova]

My 4 years old DS is singing:

"My God is good, good, God.
Yes, he is..."

I asked why he sings this and apparently the whole school is singing this in assembly. For Harvest assembly all pupils were made to read a prayer from the screen. This is a non religious, local community school. My elder DS went there and there was no such thing. It was perfectly secular.

I don't wish to offend or be unkind to anyone, but it is offensive and unkind for the school to do this to our family. Now I need to tell him not to sing such things and to explain to a 4 years old that the teachers are wrong to make him say such words etc. He would want to join with his peers. This is very wrong. We should not be in this position.

What is the legal position on collective worship? Can they just take over the assembly and the whole school like this to exclude secular pupils?
Surely religious freedoms don't involve the freedom to force-feed and brainwash secular children into religion.

Sorry to abandon discussion, but I read something last night which reminded me of it - a piece by journalist Alex Renton which sums up much more eloquently than I could why religion in schools seems wrong. It was originally published in the Times, but is reproduced on the Archbishop of Canterbury site:

The Archbishop writes to Lulu, aged 6, about God

One except from the article which struck a chord with me was:

"I was happy that the Bible should have a role in Primary 1, but not at all that religious credo and worldly truths should be taught to my daughter as the same thing. Her adored, excellent teachers ? thanks to whom she now writes letters ? were giving out indubitable information (two and two equals four) with the same weight as the highly dubious (God loves you).

Within a few weeks of school starting last August we found her praying at bedtime. That was rather sweet, on first sight, but then I thought: shouldn?t we have been asked? I felt that the evening ritual of teeth-brushing, story, song and kiss ? the most intimate between child and parent ? had been rather invaded. And while teaching the habit of praying to God to help one be good is hardly corrosive to the liberties of a six-year-old, I felt already that her moral education had been taken out of our hands and off on to controversial ground. In a small way, I felt she had been insulted. My clever, kind girl didn?t need some unexplained superbeing?s help to be good, nor should she so lightly be invited to pass over the responsibility."

Ivykatty44, it appears the devil can quote statistics as well as the gospel!

78% of the population with faith, was the response to the leading national statistics question "What is your religion?" interesting choice of phrase that requires you to choose a religion as a default.

The British Social Attitudes survey asked the question "Do you regard yourself as belonging to any particular religion?" 50.67% selected 'No Religion' in 2009

Other major polls agree with the British Social Attitudes surveys and the European Social Surveys:

A YouGov survey fielded April 2012 indicated that 45% of respondents claimed to belong to a religion (not just christian).

A YouGov survey fielded February 2012 indicated that 43% of respondents claimed to belong to a religion (not just christian) and 76% claimed they were not very religious or not religious at all.

A YouGov survey fielded September 2010 indicated that 49% of respondents claimed to belong to a religion (not just christian).

An Ipsos MORI survey fielded August 2003 indicated that 18% of respondents claimed to be "a practising member of an organised religion" and 25% claimed "I am a non-practising member of an organised religion"

The majority do not have faith and practicing Christians make up a significant but minority group. There is absolutely no justification for the continued brain washing of our children in the cult of Jesus Christ!

LemonMousse "make sure you don't buy your DC any Christmas presents or Easter eggs then OP"

Easter and Christmas were festivals long before they were annexed by the cult of Jesus. Almost every part of the Jesus cult are stolen from previous mythologies. Easter as a celebration of spring and new life, rebirth after the long winter. Christmas as Yuletide and the birth of the new year, often celebrated as the birth of a child.

History is fiction as far as christian brianwashing is concerned. My 6yo children were taught recently that chocolate Easter eggs represented the rock rolled away from jesus' tomb! I had to point out that if it had been chocolate, jesus could have eaten his way out, and in the middle east the chocolate would have melted anyway.

Oh my god. How dramatic. I nearly spat my tea out at -

' There is absolutely no justification for the continued brain washing of our children in the cult of Jesus Christ!'

As previously said by people this is a Christian country if you don't like it move to another country or write to your MP. Do something about it.

Just putting your hands together and repeating some words is not praying. Praying is a mental thing. The fact is the children don't have to do it.

My dc's listen to the very loud singing and prayers from the Jewish accommodation across the street from me and sometimes sing along to one of the songs they like. Do I care? no it it just a song. Unless the person singing believes there is meaning behind it it then it is only words.

I went to a Catholic school and am now an Athiest and I don't care less about my kids saying prayers. If they want to believe then they can if they don't then they don't have to. The point is as I said previously as far as the government are concerned this is a Christian country. Clearly if more people than the few on here spouting off about it were concerned it would be something to look into. As someone else said earlier if you go to Malta you would expect your child to be exposed to Catholicism etc.

OP, you are being intolerant, and you do live in this country. You can either withdraw your ds from this which is absolutely your right, or you could go and live in a different country where your views are reflected more accurately in schools, or you can counteract it at home simply and non-confrontationally by explaining that not everyone believes the same things about God, and then what you do or don't believe. That way, your ds will grow up understanding that there are many different forms of belief, and being tolerant of others' belief, which I imagine is how you would like him to grow up.

We are atheist and assumed DS school is non denominational, however, they are often taken to the parish church, the minister comes for assembly etc

I don't like it at all, I like him to learn about all different religions but not taught about Jesus as if it's a fact, not a story.

I have mentioned it to the school, but I'm not going to draw attention to ds by making him sit stuff out.

Although the religious stuff pales in comparison to my annoyance with all Union Jack waving and Jubilee nonsense this week, but that's for another thread.

For goodness' sake, just tell him. Lots of believe that but we don't. It's easy. You're rattling on a complete non-issue.

But teachers teach them facts, when his teacher tells him something and I say no that's wrong then he doesn't believe me.

Learning about religion is great, should be all different religions though, I have no problem with that.

I do however have a problem with him being taught about one religion as though it is a fact.

Hardly think its a non issue.

For all the people saying it isn't oppression just withdraw them, would you say that if he was singing about Allah?

Yes, it is legal and a requirement and yes north korea is worse. That doesn't make this backwards practice right.

WHOA, back up a few steps. In my opinion, the key issue here isn't even whether the school should or shouldn't have such worship or whether you do or don't withdraw him - it's WHY ON EARTH do you NEED to tell him he must not sing such things and that teachers are wrong to make him say certain words????
What on earth is wrong with simply telling him that some people believe A and some people (including you) believe B? Telling him it is actually WRONG to sing such things is just as oppressive and unethical as forcing him TO sing. It may also lead to him thinking that his classmates are 'naughty' for singing such songs or repeating what he's been told by you and telling them that there beliefs are wrong which will be just as upsetting for them and their parents as this is for you.

And, as the others said, this has nothing at all to do with conservatives (I don't even like conservatives but there's no point blaming them for things that are completely unrelated).

When I was at school we sang hymns and The East is Red (in translation). I don't think many of us turned into maoists.

My dds go to a catholic school and have mass every wednesday. We are not catholic. They are not indoctrinated. Children aren't stupid, they make up their own minds.

And back to the original questions:

The-school-is-making-my-4-years-old-to-sing-gospels

The school is complying with the law of the land. We are not a secular country but a Christian one, state and religion are linked in both law, government and practice. There are many countries which have no link between state and religion (France, for example). Unfortunately, that's not where you live. Feel free to challenge the constitution, (thankfully we are also a democracy and have freedom of speech so neither you, or your son will get persecuted for it). However I fear it may take longer than your child's primary school years for constitutional change to happen, even if there is a massive swell of support for it ? which I don't believe there is, currently.

how-to-get-out-of-this

Withdraw him from collective acts of worship and RE lessons. You are within your rights (as protected by law) to do this. I doubt he, or any of his friends will be remotely bothered, and I doubt he will be the only one.

Simple really, isn't it.

Of course what you don't have the right to do is insist that your personal beliefs alone should cause the school to refuse to comply with the law of the land by stopping collective acts of worship. And your personal beliefs are unlikely to be sufficient in themselves to bring about national constitutional change either.

Sorry if that's a shock to you.

Oh, and if you find a country where the constitution is such that absolutely everyone, of every belief and political bent, is 100% happy with it, then let me know. I might move.

Bet they'd have an impossible immigration policy though.

db
xx