The school is making my 4 years old to sing gospels, how to get out of this?

[Lokova]

My 4 years old DS is singing:

"My God is good, good, God.
Yes, he is..."

I asked why he sings this and apparently the whole school is singing this in assembly. For Harvest assembly all pupils were made to read a prayer from the screen. This is a non religious, local community school. My elder DS went there and there was no such thing. It was perfectly secular.

I don't wish to offend or be unkind to anyone, but it is offensive and unkind for the school to do this to our family. Now I need to tell him not to sing such things and to explain to a 4 years old that the teachers are wrong to make him say such words etc. He would want to join with his peers. This is very wrong. We should not be in this position.

What is the legal position on collective worship? Can they just take over the assembly and the whole school like this to exclude secular pupils?
Surely religious freedoms don't involve the freedom to force-feed and brainwash secular children into religion.

I think-having read some of the posts-that the majority of posters haven't the remotest clue about what goes on in a modern assembly-they are basing it entirely on their own experiences of primary school.

So if Christian assemblies are so innocuous and meaningless and nobody pays attention to them and they have no influence on anyone, why are people fighting so hard in their defence?

It's tricky. My DS is 21 and a non-believer but I think he's pleased (at least in retrospect) to have been to schools with a Christian "ethos":

He knows what he is rejecting (mainstream religion in this country).

He knows Bible stories which underpin so much of our literature and our sayings ("He's a Judas", "He's a Jonah", He's a Good Samaritan", "She's a Jezebel" etc).

He can "get" art from the Renaissance, the Victorians etc.

He can enjoy tuneful Church-inspired music from Jerusalem to The Messiah.

The bottom line is that Christianity informs much of our culture. Better perhaps to know something about it even if you reject its tenets? Let's face it - most people do reject it without suffering any guilt.

I'm not fighting anything! I don't actually think that they any longer have a place in schools, but they are innocuous and I think that it does a DC good to have 15mins where they get together with the whole school and have time for quietness and reflection. I'm certainly not going to get upset about it and I will save my battles for the things that I think important. I think it useful for the DC who does have parents ho are very opposed because it at least gives them the chance to experience other ideas I really don't think that a DC who wants to go to church stands any chance of being taken by a parent who is anti. I don't see how they can make up their own mind if they only get one side i.e. mothers.
On the whole I agree with grovel.

And I said I thought children shouldn't learn about Christianity/read bible stories/look at art inspired by religion/listen to sacred music exactly when?

exotic fruits- if you think the is no place for prayers in schools, why don you always come on these threads saying you think there is?????

"I think-having read some of the posts-that the majority of posters haven't the remotest clue about what goes on in a modern assembly-they are basing it entirely on their own experiences of primary school."

Well that is certainly part of the problem - who knows what goes on in each child's assembly, since all school appear to be a bit different in this respect? As far as I can make out, it is all down the whims of the head teacher. I have seen posts on MN where parents complain that evangelical groups have been allowed 'air space' in school assembly - presumably due to the teachers'/governers' connections and preferences.

I don't believe it is consistently 'modern God' and 'C of E Lite' (whatever that might be).

If I had a choice, seeker, I would say that schools have changed since 1870, or even 1950, (as has the country) and I don't think that it is their place to provide collective worship. I don't feel strongly enough to fight it. I think it important to teach RE. While collective worship is still with us I can see that it has its good points.
I mainly come on because I dislike the attitude of 'I am an atheist and therefore my child is', or 'I am a Christian and therefore my child is' (or Jew, Sikh whatever). Faith or lack of it is a private matter and people make up their minds for themselves-and they have no right to make it for someone else. I dislike the fact that parents have made their own decision and don't want their DC exposed to any other views or experiences. It is a complete accident of birth which family you get and I can't see why someone born into a Christian family is stuck with it, or someone born into a Muslim family is stuck with it. They should be completely free to make up their own mind.
People do seem obsessed with the idea they are right and their DC must abide by it. I can't see why it is important. A 4 year old isn't anything-they are merely what their parents are. Singing gospel songs just adds to the variety of experiences.

exoticfruits - I think your position would be more credible if you weren't a Christian yourself and the thing you 'weren't inclined to make a fuss about' was the fact that children have to do Christian worship by law.

I don't expect my child to be an atheist. What I expect is that when they are very young, they are not given confusing and contradictory messages about supernatural beings by their schoolteachers. As you say, faith or lack of it is a private matter - not a matter for state concern. That doesn't mean that if my child wanted to explore religion when they were older I would want to (or could, even if I did want to) prevent them from doing so.

exoticfruits - sorry, that last message sounds grumpier than I intended it to! What i meant was that it's much easier to not mind when the system actually fits with what you believe in anyway.

"I mainly come on because I dislike the attitude of 'I am an atheist and therefore my child is',"

It is precisely because I don't hold thwt view that I object to praying in schools! If I try very hard not to indoctrinate my children with my views, I don't see why I should put up with schools indoctrinating them with theirs! And it's a bit rich for Vhristians to say "oh, it doesn't matter- not worth getting worked up about when it' their views that are being reinforced!

A fair enough point.
To get back to the circle-if you don't like it actively campaign against. If the majority of parents want something they get it e.g. homework in the primary school.

Seeker, if you were in a choir, and the choirmaster chose religious songs as part of your repertoire, would you leave?

I know you will probably say you wouldn't have to be in choir, unlike children in school, and you would be right in that of course. But if you loved singing and this was the local choir?

I only ask because I have been at choir this evening and we ended with a lovely spiritual. So much beautiful music is out there, I think it would be a shame to miss out if you were that way inclined because of such strong opinions.

This isn't a criticism, just a question :).

I am and I would and I do. I also listen to Verdi,, Mozart and Handel.

The point is that the aim of singing music in a choir is not to worship. It is to perform. Putting your hands together, lowering your eyes and saying "Gentle Jesus, meek and mild Look upon a little child" is Christian prayer. Worship. interceding to god. Christian practice. Like taking Communion. Nobody would say that a child should take communion as part of the normal day in a non faith state school. Praying is no different. You could say "oh, it's just eating a biscuit, take no notice" But it isn't.

"To get back to the circle-if you don't like it actively campaign against. If the majority of parents want something they get it e.g. homework in the primary school."

Well, again that's easy for you to say because you are well aware that many parents are too uninformed / unaware / uninterested / busy / apathetic to do exactly that.

Mine asked to go to church about two years ago and we went a few times, she was dragged off by the elders to Sunday school, decided she didn't like that bit and was a bit confused as to why we had to go around the church shaking hands when she's not supposed to talk to strangers etc and she decided after a few months that we'll go to dance classes instead.....

We haven't had her christened mainly cos I'm Methodist and ExP is Catholic and we couldn't agree on the church. So she can make her own mind up. Her school isn't a church school but they do learn about the religious festivals and do nativity etc. I have zero problem with that. If she gets anything out of it then great. If not, it was a good excuse to dress up and sing!

What I do object to are those godawful songs that replace hymns in assembly. All about rainbows and what to have for dinner on Tuesdays! Dreadful things. Ipod comes on discreetly at that point. Mine not hers!

Which just shows that it isn't a problem to most people. If it was a problem it would change pretty quickly.

In answer to Bonfire

"Which just shows that it isn't a problem to most people. If it was a problem it would change pretty quickly."

I don't agree. Lack of parental awareness (and hence lack of campaigning) doesn't mean it's a Good Thing.

You see it time after time here on MN - parents coming on under the illusion that their children attend a 'secular school' because it doesn't have 'Catholic' or 'Church of England' in its name.

I firmly believe that schools should give a warning before DCs start. I think the reason that they don't is that they assume that people understand the situation.
The majority went to state primary schools in UK themselves and nothing has changed. I wonder why parents assume there has been change?
Someone said there was a huge difference between a faith school and non denominational school. There really isn't that much. A faith school will have a close relationship with a vicar, they will visit church and often have additional prayers -grace, end of day etc. Other than that they are very similar-the vicar may come into a non denominational school. As has been said, a lot depends on the Head.

I don't think that people have much clue about assemblies. They are really not as they were in their school days.
As a (very) general pattern, most schools will have one day as hymn practice (gives other staff time to work with groups). One day will be a class doing assembly. This is unlikely to have any religious content other than a hymn at the start (as BorderDancer said they are fairly dire songs these days)and a concluding statement that pupils can make a prayer if they wish. To give an example on the last 2 I did, one was based on our art theme for the term and the other on literacy where we did a play about aliens from space.
One day may be a 'good work' assembly where a certain class show off their best work-DCs read their own stories show topic work etc.
Often there is a 'gold book', or similar, day.
The Head is likely to take one with hymn, prayer and moral topic.
A teacher is likely to take one with hymn, prayer and story of some sort-quite likely to be from another faith or moral story.
Sometimes classes have one day where they just have a class one in their room.
Visiting people of interest may come in, e.g. a charity.
Prayers tend to be a statement that can be made into a prayer by adding amen if they wish (I doubt whether 5yr olds understand the difference)
No one is singing about sunbeams, saying the Lord's prayer, talking about heaven or hell and damnation!

Why not actually go in and ask what the assemblies are about?

I can assure you that if the majority of parents actively didn't want it they would go. Whether through apathy, ignorance or whatever it isn't exactly a hot topic, except on MN when parents of 5 yr olds suddenly wake up to the fact that the school they fondly imagined to be secular isn't. If the DC has got to 5 yrs without a mention of God then of course it is a pretty interesting concept to them-and becomes even more interesting if it has the power to get mother upset!

Last week I asked dd (age 10) who has suddenly declared that she is to quote "part atheist, part humanist" and who explained infront of the whole class why she was not putting her hands together and closing her eyes during the class assembly how then she was fine about singing a very religious song in a musical she will be appearing in later in the year.

She basically said what seeker said, that singing the song is acting a role, my character is religious, in assembly it is worshipping a God I don't believe exists.

As I said, Elphabais, leave it to the DCs-people will assume they have no mind of their own. They can work things out for themselves without the parent having to shield them.