The school is making my 4 years old to sing gospels, how to get out of this?

[Lokova]

My 4 years old DS is singing:

"My God is good, good, God.
Yes, he is..."

I asked why he sings this and apparently the whole school is singing this in assembly. For Harvest assembly all pupils were made to read a prayer from the screen. This is a non religious, local community school. My elder DS went there and there was no such thing. It was perfectly secular.

I don't wish to offend or be unkind to anyone, but it is offensive and unkind for the school to do this to our family. Now I need to tell him not to sing such things and to explain to a 4 years old that the teachers are wrong to make him say such words etc. He would want to join with his peers. This is very wrong. We should not be in this position.

What is the legal position on collective worship? Can they just take over the assembly and the whole school like this to exclude secular pupils?
Surely religious freedoms don't involve the freedom to force-feed and brainwash secular children into religion.

They create an emotional trauma for a 4 years old. Being excluded from an apparently fun group activity for the reasons he is too young to truly understand. Staying in the group is learning to break your integrity and self respect under threat of being excluded. Both options unethical to inflict to a 4 years old. Unacceptable. . Children cannot be taught to ?try-on? values that they reject to stay with friends, like trying Nazi salute at a company party because boss finds it fun.
Oppressive because of power unbalance and unethical because of young age.

I think perhaps you should find something else to worry about. Children are in school for six hours a day, five days a week. Do you think so little of yourself and your own parenting and values that you find at the age of four he rejects everything you tell him and believes all the songs he sings at school? They're just songs.

OP - has there been a change in Head, or the person who knows how to play the piano? As others have said it is the law, but it is a stupid law, and some schools follow it more religiously than others.

I would go in and speak to them, say you'd like to withdraw him from worship and ask how they will make sure he still gets the information and other sharing that goes on during assembly. Don't go off the deal end though.

Catrus - I didn't know this was in the JD for teachers. That does seem discriminatory. Surely teachers should have the right to withdraw too?

This is a wind up, right?

If you want a more considered response, OP then you need to explain more about your background. I don't think English is your first language, and you are coming across as someone very unfamiliar with this country, the culture and the school system. How does your partner feel about it?
Why are you so threatened by something that to the rest of us seems very mundane?

Himalaya, there are ways round it for teachers, such as gathering together as more than one class for an assembly.

I do sympathise with you OP. But I sung all sorts of songs and had to listen to all sorts of twaddle at school, not to mention being christened and am a complete atheist.

It's not the same as the Hitler Youth is it? It's not really a fair comparison.

The sort of Christianity your child will get at a state school will be pretty watered down.

How would the Christians feel if the kids were asked to sing "there is no evidence of god" every day?

staying in the group is learning to break your integrity and self respect
Either this is a piss take or you are quite, quite mad.

Sorry I think this is a wind up

Ease off on the coffee OP. You've gone a bit bonkers. HTH.

this might help you OP.

'Sorry I think this is a wind up'

That's probably because you don't deal with ranty and obsessive parents on a daily basis.
If you dislike the system OP, take him out of it.

Why are you so threatened by something that to the rest of us seems very mundane?

I can't speak for the OP, but I work with a lady from an eastern European country who finds religion very threatening, she was explain why she felt this way one day at work and why she refuses to have or take part in any type of religion on the basis that it has started to many wars as the people are indoctrinated with religion from an early age so it becomes part of their being.

To her religion became the symbol of war

make sure you don't buy your DC any Christmas presents or Easter eggs then OP - that would be indoctrination of the worst kind! (as well as making them greedy and obese).

I was thinking along those lines too ivykate.

Perhaps you should home ed.
You are not going to enjoy primary school methinks.

Well, I'm not Eastern European and I don't find it mundane at all - I think the OP is correct. As ivykaty44 says: "people are indoctrinated with religion from an early age so it becomes part of their being". This is not allowing children to make up their own minds when they are older, as so many people on MN seem to think it is. This is making religion the default 'truth' which one must opt-out of later, which is very difficult for many people. And that's exactly why churches insist upon bringing children into the fold from birth. It's not mundane, it's not bonkers and it's not mad - it's brainwashing and it should be seen for what it is.

OP - speak to the Head and find out why things have changed at the school. Then find out what they are doing to entertain children who do not take part in the assembly. I have a friend whose school makes it so much fun for the kids who opt-out that they love being 'excluded'.

You will find the school very willing and able to cooperate OP, unless it is a Faith school. Go and talk to them and explain that you don't want your son and any god to become acquainted.

I'm an atheist (despite many years of hymn singing every morning at school) and DS goes to a non-religious school but it leans towards christian celebrations. We celebrate Christmas and Easter but purely in the consumerist/family get together sense.

I have no problem with DS (5) having a good sing song at school. We have discussed religions and set out what others believe and what we believe and told him it's something he needs to decide when he's an adult. He believes what we believe!

I think you are giving the songs too much power. DS spent about 3 months singing "i'm a dingle dangle scarecrow' - I had no concerns that he was going to do a midnight flit and i'd find him with a crow on his head down the allotment. As a parent you define his parameters and he will interpret things within that.

Then find out what they are doing to entertain children who do not take part in the assembly. I have a friend whose school makes it so much fun for the kids who opt-out that they love being 'excluded'.

Do you have a problem with that, Feenie? Do you think the kids who are pulled out of assembly should sit somewhere quietly and be ashamed of themselves?

Not at all, no child should feel ashamed of anything that is not under their personal control. Just a bit of an odd way to look at withdrawal from an activity, as an opportunity for a romp. Something of equal educational value should replace it, PSHCE-based.

Lokova I am assuming you didn't grow up in the UK. Those of us who did also grew up with these compulsory Christian assemblies, but rather than producing a nation of fervent Christians, it has actually produced a large proportion of atheists, probably an equal number of non-practising Christians who vaguely believe in some of the god and Jesus stuff but don't actually go to church, and a minority of practising church-goers, most of whom came from strongly religious families or who found religion at some critical point in their lives. I have never met anyone who can trace their beliefs back to mumbling a few hymns and being in a nativity play in infants school.

I am an atheist and a member of the National Secular Society, but I haven't withdrawn my children from school assemblies. They are now 13 and 9 and neither of them believes in god.

I think religious worship should be removed from schools ( though not religious education) but I do sometimes look at the US and wonder: they have a strict ban on religion in state schools, but as a nation are so religious that the idea of an atheist president is less acceptable to most Americans than a Muslim president.

I would just relax about the school assemblies, but make sure you explain to your DS that most people don't believe that stuff.

No - if I chose to pull my ds out of collective worship I wouldn't expect him to be 'entertained' though. As Dustinthewind says, an alternative PSHCE type learning activity would be more suitable.

I sent my ds to a C of E school because that's where his childminder, who he had been to since he was 9 months old, picks up from. In effect, I chose her over the school, although all schools in the area are 'good'. We do not worship anyone, but haven't discussed this with Y1 ds - he can make up his own mind, I wouldn't dream of imposing my atheism on him - what's the difference between school doing that or us?

He has already decided that he thinks some people believe in God, but he doesn't. Fair enough. He still goes to church every now and then with school, and we have no objection.