The school is making my 4 years old to sing gospels, how to get out of this?

[Lokova]

My 4 years old DS is singing:

"My God is good, good, God.
Yes, he is..."

I asked why he sings this and apparently the whole school is singing this in assembly. For Harvest assembly all pupils were made to read a prayer from the screen. This is a non religious, local community school. My elder DS went there and there was no such thing. It was perfectly secular.

I don't wish to offend or be unkind to anyone, but it is offensive and unkind for the school to do this to our family. Now I need to tell him not to sing such things and to explain to a 4 years old that the teachers are wrong to make him say such words etc. He would want to join with his peers. This is very wrong. We should not be in this position.

What is the legal position on collective worship? Can they just take over the assembly and the whole school like this to exclude secular pupils?
Surely religious freedoms don't involve the freedom to force-feed and brainwash secular children into religion.

I don't believe you can't have morals without religion. I am not religious! I don't think the opposite is true either, that a secular way of life is more moral. Look at France banning headscarves.

As I say, Ideologically agree with the anti-lobby and I would remove the church from politics, schools, everything but I think culturally that would be a huge mistake. And who am I to say that God doesn't exist or the concept of God won't help 1000s of people get through life? What if children that have a tough home life and feel alone find comfort in the concept of Christianity? Or buddhism on one of the other 49% of days? Is that not a positive thing? Where else would they learn how it feels to be collectively praying?

I would be against removing the opportunity for children to find this out for themselves. Teaching is not the same as experiencing, we all know that from the good maths and science teachers that make things come alive or not liking a play in the classroom until you see it on stage and get lost in it. Why is religion any different.

As for inclusive... Do the schools say "all those that don't believe in god are not welcome here but we have to have you" or do they just let the children know that in assembly they have to repeat the lords prayer when HT says "let us pray..." is it a big deal to get them to do it or just good practice for having to go to work and do pointless things your boss makes you do but you know aren't the best way It's just another school rule like putting finger on lips when teacher is talking or saying your number for register. I'm sure somone, somewhere will find those things offensive too. If they all have to do it, it's inclusive. Noone is saying they have to be christians they just have to participate.

I don't think it's particularly enlightened, no. But you can't change the world over night. If it's part of the legal guidelines of how primary schools are run then I don't see what else the op can do on a practical level.

It's not on the same level as creationism - I do think there are bigger things to worry about. But then I have a child in a catholic school and it doesn't bother me that she has to make lenten promises etc.

Yes, bonfire I do see what you mean

" is it a big deal to get them to do it or just good practice for having to go to work and do pointless things your boss makes you do but you know aren't the best way"

Yes of course children have to learn to do things they don't necessarily want to do, like come in from the playground and start their maths lesson - they do that stuff all the time.

But saying the Lord's Prayer is a completely different 'task'. The children who identify themselves as Christian might enjoy it and feel part of it. Others who are 'cultural' Christians might just be bored by it. Children who practise another (or no) religion at home might feel alienated by it, and rightly so.

I think then we get to the debate of whether people should find other people's religions offensive or alienating. I would think a truly inclusive society or school is one where we can all try each others religions without feeling alienated. If we start telling our children to be offended by other people's beliefs being observed in our presence we are getting things badly wrong.

The "rightly so" worries me a bit. I actually think you might be detecting persecution where there is none. To insist that someone can't practise their own religion is abhorrent but to forbid anyone from trying anyone else's is just as bad.

But Jalapeno, it's not a case of 'this week we'll try Christianity, next week we'll try Hinduism, the next week Judaism' is it?

Religion of any kind offends me when I or my dc are required to endure it.

I don't find other people's religion offensive at all, as long as I'm not expected to take part in their worship on a regular basis.

How would you feel if you had to, for example, chant verses from a religion that wasn't yours every time you turned up to work in the morning? Yes it might be culturally interesting at first, but every day for years on end? Wouldn't you feel like it was a waste of time and yes, a bit alienating?

To be honest bonfire, I don't know how they do it but I know there is a CofE slant to most things (not a CofE school). It irritates me ideologically as I have said before - I am not religious. I would never say it offends me though, that seems far too strong a reaction. I would be mortified if DS came home and said he was offended by assembly because he was asked to observe a religion that he didn't believe in. I'm not sure he even knows at nearly 7 what offensive (as opposed to rude) is actually, I'll ask him after school.

I didn't actually say that children might feel 'offended', I said they might feel 'alienated'. As in, not included, not made to feel part of the group, different - none of which are particularly positive things to do to a child on a regular basis.

Bonfire it would be a waste of time, yes, but if it was in my contract that I had signed I would do it. I don't consider it offensive to say the lords prayer or sing hymns and do so quite happily at weddings, christenings etc. I would do the same at a hindu or muslim ceremony but I wouldn't know the words Here is an advantage our children have

Alienating, definitely not. I might get the giggles at inopportune moments but how on earth is it alienating to me? Unless I have been told for years on end that I should be offended and alienated by it. I don't want that future for the UK!

I actually work for a Christian organisation. Some aspects of their beliefs are incompatible with my belief system but they are good employers and provide a good service. Irreplaceable in fact, the state refuse to do it.

Another example: Beavers. I find the god aspect irritating. But noone can doubt the organisation and the fun that boys have doing it. Looking for a "secular beavers" would make me bonkers as all DS's school friends are there, it has a wonderful network and community and yes it is educational. There are also lots of boys from other religions in my DS's "pack" or whatever they are called. I would be deliberately alienating my DS by not sending him to the club that is perfectly good and entwined in our heritage just because they do things in the name of god. For me, it is the same with school.

Sorry bonfire it was bemybebe that said offended. I was sort of answering both of your points, didn't mean to merge them.

Should HTs be asking parents when their children join the school whether they are to be excluded from assembly? I only ask as I don't remember being asked this when DD started. But again this could cause problems if both parents have different views on the subject (as in our house!).

There is at least 1 muslim girl in DD's school but don't know if she attends all the assemblies or not

My parents were asked to remove me from a school I attended abroad in one of the former colonies for being 'a nasty little heathen and a bad example to the other children' - I was 6 years old and I refused to say prayers in assemblies and would sit on my hands. The school was technically secular but the HT and his wife were fundamentalist Baptists.

Since then I have a profound dislike of any attempt to make a child participate in religion. I would be extremely angry if anyone insisted that my DD had to actually SAY the Lord's Prayer - fine to expect children to sit quietly while others do, but they shouldn't be expected to have to bow their heads, knee, put their hands together or actually say any of the words.

Should I be worried that my DCs are going to become Hindus or turn Chinese? They made Diwali lamps at school last year and celebrated Chinese New Year recently too. There was also a big focus on pancakes a couple of weeks ago, which we all know is a very Christian event, definitely not just an excuse to fling batter around and eat yummy Nutella pancakes so I'll be watching out for any extreme religious behaviour.

A Diwali lamp or Chinese New Year are one offs that are completely different from a 'DAILY act of collective worship of a broadly or wholly Christian nature'.

I dont agree with religion and education being mixed at all. Having said that my children have all attended a CofE primary school (because it was the only one who had room when we moved down here)

I have a 10 and 8 year old still in the school. Recently they had the following conversation

ds (10) to dd3 do you believe in God?

dd3 (8) "not that much"

ds "I don't either"

So the school is doing a great job on the whole Christianity malarchy [grins]

jalapeno I said "Religion of any kind offends me when I or my dc are required to endure it." I frankly do not care one bit what people believe as long as they do not expect me to participate in it on a regular basis.

Obviously, if I go to a church for a wedding or christening ceremony I accept that this is the house of god and I am a guest. The same goes for the private houses. However, in school, government office, hospital, police station etc I expect to be treated equal to any other religious or indeed non-religious person and NOT softly or obviously forced to participate, witness, endure etc any form of worship to god or another matter...

The statement did come across as not ever wanting to be subjected to any kind of religion at any time.

I still can't see why equality is infringed. Equality to me would be absent if my child were excluded from school, told he was going to hell, not given academic or other opportunities or belittled on a personal level due to his religion or, even worse, my religion. That is not happening here, it is in no way preventing your child having the same opportunities as a Christian child. It is in no way the same as being told they can't attend any school because they are female or black or muslim. I also genuinely think that primary age children don't feel this moral outrage as strongly as some on this thread do. Again, do we have any studies on this?

Your children are not told they must believe in Christianity or any other religion, they just have to participate in assembly and hear a story, sing a song. The law is in place to make things equal, all children must participate in the act of worship.

Religious schools are totally different and I wholeheartedly disagree with faith schools that select by faith. That does infringe equality and I'd love to see them abolished or privatised.

I can't see this ever resolving or the two sides of atheism agreeing on this even though I can see the arguments of both sides. I think the risks of removing the worship would outweigh the benefits. I think more people benefit enormously from it than there are disgruntled atheists that just don't want to endure it. Sorry!

It is an equalities issue though, surely. All religions are not provided for equally, so those from non-Christian religions (or no religion) are put in the position of having to attend worship which isn't appropriate or meaningful for them.

And I'd agree that a lot of children probably won't be particularly put out by this, especially when they are younger and don't really understand what is going on, but I'm sure many children come to realise that it's a part of school life that they can't really fit into, which is sad.

I guess I just don't think that everything has to be appropriate or meaningful. I'm quite happy (in fact would go out of my way to support it!!) for a few minutes of the day for DS to be exposed to things that he finds mind-numbingly boring...in fact he'd possibly classify the whole of school in this way except possibly maths. He'd rather play on the wii .

Perhaps a quick game of mariocart some mornings as worship?

To play devils advocate again perhaps it is similar to a fat child with no interest in PE that might feel picked on because they can't run 200m or that everyone's laughing at them and just doesn't see why they have to play football or run cross country. Perhaps even their chubby parents tell them that they shouldn't have to do PE (I actually know of parents that have written to our primary school asking for their DC to be excused because they don't like PE! School having none of it)....should we excuse them from PE? Or insist they do it? Insist of course! I realise that PE is good for physical health and this is different to religious or cultural experiences but we all have physical and spiritual health needs even when atheist or fat! (I am both at the moment )

I am neither atheist nor fat and I did not get your message implying that PE to physical health is what daily act of christian worship to spiritual health.

I regard the daily act of christian worship a lesson in hypocrisy, which may or may not be useful for daily survival for the rest of my dcs lives, but this is something I accept, let alone encourage...

"but this is something I don't want to accept, let alone encourage..."

"I am just so baffled that people think it's OK to say "Not a Christian? Well, either pretend to be one or miss out an an important part of school life" Do people really think that's OK? On any level?"

I'm reporting this because nobody has answered. I suspect because they can't!

Reposting, not reporting. That would be strange.