The school is making my 4 years old to sing gospels, how to get out of this?

[Lokova]

My 4 years old DS is singing:

"My God is good, good, God.
Yes, he is..."

I asked why he sings this and apparently the whole school is singing this in assembly. For Harvest assembly all pupils were made to read a prayer from the screen. This is a non religious, local community school. My elder DS went there and there was no such thing. It was perfectly secular.

I don't wish to offend or be unkind to anyone, but it is offensive and unkind for the school to do this to our family. Now I need to tell him not to sing such things and to explain to a 4 years old that the teachers are wrong to make him say such words etc. He would want to join with his peers. This is very wrong. We should not be in this position.

What is the legal position on collective worship? Can they just take over the assembly and the whole school like this to exclude secular pupils?
Surely religious freedoms don't involve the freedom to force-feed and brainwash secular children into religion.

I have known Hindu DCs go into assembly (and other faiths) the parents were happy for them to have other experiences. The only ones who seem very rigid are Jehovah Witnesses -they never do assembly.

If you talk tot he Head of the school they can only refer you to the 1998 education act.

Seeker, no I think that would be inappropriate to do in assembly for dcs that either believe in god or those that haven't thought about it. I haven't said that to my own son because he hasn't asked me yet. Would it be appropriate for a reception teacher to tell her class before Xmas that Santa isn't real? No, it would be cruel and pointless.

Bemybebe that is so desperately sad. Do you really think a 4 year old holds such rigid moral superiority? I hope noone has taught their 4 year old to be so angry and understand the concept of hypocrisy. What on earth does that gain? It's almost like instilling catholic guilt on an atheist! Or are you another religion?

Whilst we are on the subject of unanswered questions...do those of you that hate this worship send your dcs to beavers/cubs/guides etc? Also have we any good research about the long term effect of praying without belief?

Also bemybebe doing something they don't believe in to make other people happy is not being a hypocrite, it's called being kind and thoughtful. It's called trying new things. It is called life! It is often found in a loving relationship.

You and I will never agree on this because I think that the wellbeing of the whole school is more important than me or my son or what we believe in.

So why is it only non Christians who have to do something they don't believe in to make others happy? Why shouldn't the Christians do that instead?

A 4 yr old isn't anything-it is merely his parents. If OP was was a Muslim the DC would be, they just follow their parents. Once they are old enough they may have completely different ideas. I don't see what is wrong in exposing them to all ideas.
It is far more enlightening for the Hindu to allow their DC to attend a Christian assembly than a Jehovah's Witness to never allow it. I can only think that the Hindu parent is secure in their own faith and the Jehovah's Witness is insecure. It would seem to me that the atheist is worried that their DC would be brainwashed. I have more faith in my DCs to make up their own mind. I am quite happy for them to come across people who say there is no God or to go to a service in another faith. It is all part of life's rich tapestry and much more enlightening than 'mummy says there is no God'-how dare you tell my DC differently'. Maybe your DC will grow up to have a faith.No one has yet told me why it matters.
Do you have a different relationship with your DC if they happen to think differently? Why should it matter to my atheist cousin that her DS is an practising Christian. Should she love her atheist DD more? It all seems weird to me. Why this obsession with your DC thinking the same as you? You are very privileged to be given your DC for a short while to nurture-it is quite obvious that you will bring them up in your belief system, but very wrong IMO that you should assume that it is in your gift to decide what they will believe as they get older.
While I don't actually think that collective worship has a place in schools I can't actually get very bothered about a 4 yr old singing gospel songs. It seems healthier to allow the experience than ban it because the parent would never sing gospel songs. In 99% of cases the parent has had the experience of hymn singing when young-without being brainwashed. A Jehovah's Witness DC has never been able to tell me why they can't do things, other than 'mummy wouldn't like it'.

Exactly what Exoticfruits said.

Seeker, on this issue, the "Christians" have to attend non-christian worship up to 49% of the time. It isn't just the "Christians" that have to just get on with it. However I still don't see how primary DCs would be that bothered and ticking off CofE/non-CofE assemblies to make sure it's fair. I also think many of the DCs wouldn't have any innate beliefs, they just find their way and get on with it.

On other issues, christians feel marginalised all the time. Catholics don't like it that abortion is legal or that gay marriage is allowed. I don't know why but it's a problem for them. Should we criminalise abortion because a significant proportion of the population find it offensive? No. I really think the anti-lobby have to look at the greater good on this one and not insist that it is abolished because the christians seem to be "favoured".

So still no answer about Beavers etc from people that want this worship abolished? Hypocrisy isn't doing something you don't want to do or don't believe in to please others, it's making an almighty fuss about religion in the name of not making a child acknowledge or talk to a god that their parents don't believe in.... then sending your child to beavers

I used to interview leaders for the Scout association-what question that always had to be asked was the leader's stance on religion.The most common answer was that although they did not partake in organised religion themselves they had nothing against taking church parades etc. When I was a Beaver leader I knew that it would come up in the interview. promise here Leaders take the Scour promise.

Sorry-Scout

I base my ideas on the poem on Children by Kahlil Gibran, especially:

'Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.'

Far too many parents think it is in their gift to tell DCs what they should think and believe- or do with their life.
You should guide but ultimately it is up to the DC and I don't see the point in censorship being so rigid that a 4 yr old can't sing a gospel song.

I cannot really understand the problem here, I don't think a 4 year old should necessarily be the same religion as the parents, they should be open to all different religions and choose when they are able.

My mum's family were aethiest but she learnt a bit about religion at school and chose to go to church on her own from the age of 10. Nothing wrong with that and her family were happy for her to do it.

I am CofE and my husband is Catholic so we had a unitarian 'naming' service for our children so we will let them decide.

I can't see how it hurts if they particpate at school as long as you explain to your DC what you believe and what other people believe etc. The school are not wrong to make him say 'those words', a Christian belief is not wrong a muslim belief is not wrong etc etc!!! At school they cover many different religions anyway - I fail to see the harm in it, sorry!

I don't want my children to automatically follow my beliefs. That is why I don't impose my beliefs on them.

Is it too much for me to expect school not to impose their beliefs on them either?

Oh, and to whoever (sorry, I can't remember who) asked about Beavers. The Scout movement is openly Christian. If you don't like it there are other groups you can belong to. It is not compulsory to be a Beaver. it is compulsory to go to school.

So it's not hypocritical to choose for your DC to swear allegiance to god at a voluntary organisation but to insist that it is oppressive and alienating for the same DC to do a much less overtly Christian thing at school? Just because it's compulsory?

Look. Do you think it's OK that you have to be at least a nominal Christian in order to fully access state funded education. Yes or No?

I still don't understand why you want to censor what your DC comes across (as long as it isn't harmful as in porn etc). Christianity is main stream in UK -if the parents never go to church it is a useful way of experiencing it.Maybe your DC will have a deeply spiritual side. I have yet to meet anyone who was converted by school assemblies. Be open to discussion and trust your DC.
I must have been to more school assemblies than most people, having had a number of years supply teaching and I can only think of one that made me very uncomfortable and that was a 'born again' visiting evangelical American preacher who gave a lurid talk about the crucifixion and told them his DD 'gave herself to Jesus' aged 3 yrs!!! As if a 3 yr old had the remotest clue!
Most assemblies are a hymn, a prayer (if they wish to say it) and a talk-very often not on anything religious. It seems very narrow minded to remove your DC because you don't like it.

I don't want to censor anything. I just don't want a state educated education system to expect my children to pray to any god at all. As I said, I don't impose my beliefs on my children- as you keep telling me I shouldn't. Why is it OK for the school to?

You don't have to be a nominal Christian to fully access state education. It is open to all. You are talking about 15 mins a day that is a useful period to come together and have quiet reflection. No one is forced to take part. Ask the average 5 yr old afterwards what it was about and they can't tell you!

seeker-your DC doesn't have to pray! You can't force anyone to pray!

"Ask the average 5 yr old afterwards what it was about and they can't tell you!"

wtf - how is that any kind of a recommendation for how your child should be spending their time in school?

But I think that 15 minutes is an incredibly important part of the school day. If it was non religious evyone could take part in it. There are Jehovah's Witnesses in my ds's school who have to leave every single assembly. And the Christian thing still applies in a school that's 90% Muslim. Nobody would be disadvantaged by having it non- religious, and some people are disadvantaged by having it religious. It's honestly a no brainer.

There is a massive amount of flexibility and blind eye turning when it comes to collective worship. A school which has 90% Muslim intake isn't likely to have an overtly Christian ethos.

I have a friend who taught in a Catholic school, and the majority of the kids were Muslim. They were sent there because it was a good school presumably. And presumably they had enough faith in their own faith - as it were - to not froth about the school assemblies turning their kids into good little Catholics.

Another thing which bothers me about the state meddling in spiritual matters is the impact that talk of dying and heaven (I know hell isn't so fashionable these days, thankfully) can have on a child. It should be up to the parents to talk through stuff like this with the child as they are the ones who know them best.

A sensitive child (the type who wakes up in the night crying 'I don't want to die!') doesn't need nonsense like 'Jesus wants me for a sunbeam' messing with their minds.

Ariel - there might be a lot of blind eye turning, but the fact is that they are breaking the law if they don't deliver the required dose of the broadly Christian assembly.

And if a head teacher were to come along who did get it into their heads that a healthy dose of evangelism was a good way to start the day there isn't anything to stop them, no matter what the mix of the school intake is.

Lots of people believe that voting Conservative is the right thing to do. Would it be OK if a few minutes each day were spent explaining to children why they should be Conservative?