The school is making my 4 years old to sing gospels, how to get out of this?

[Lokova]

My 4 years old DS is singing:

"My God is good, good, God.
Yes, he is..."

I asked why he sings this and apparently the whole school is singing this in assembly. For Harvest assembly all pupils were made to read a prayer from the screen. This is a non religious, local community school. My elder DS went there and there was no such thing. It was perfectly secular.

I don't wish to offend or be unkind to anyone, but it is offensive and unkind for the school to do this to our family. Now I need to tell him not to sing such things and to explain to a 4 years old that the teachers are wrong to make him say such words etc. He would want to join with his peers. This is very wrong. We should not be in this position.

What is the legal position on collective worship? Can they just take over the assembly and the whole school like this to exclude secular pupils?
Surely religious freedoms don't involve the freedom to force-feed and brainwash secular children into religion.

People say I shouldn't impose my views on my child. I agree.

Why is it OK for the school to?

There are two arguments here that I think have been combined:

1. Should the state impose Christianity on DCs? Obviously not.

2. Does a few minutes of "collective worship" which may or may not be of Christian content in the morning make them "nominal Christians"? No. Does it impose Beliefs? No. In the same way that going to a scouting organisation doesn't confuse or brainwash non-christian DCs.

You think the act of swearing allegiance to god as a non-Christian is fine if the parent chooses for their DC to do so. The same act is not fine if compulsory. For me this underlines the point nicely that the DCs are not affected in any way, this is something that the parents of such DCs are concerned about. The law is there for this reason, to give all children the chance to experience religious participation.

I enjoy the debate but I think this is such a mountain and molehill situation.

jalapeno - if it's such a small inconsequential molehill what's the problem in getting rid of it?

"People say I shouldn't impose my views on my child. I agree.

Why is it OK for the school to?"

Indeed, you can't have it both ways.

"You think the act of swearing allegiance to god as a non-Christian is fine if the parent chooses for their DC to do so. The same act is not fine if compulsory"

I don't actually think it's fine to swear allegiance to god as anon Christian. But that is hardly relevant to this debate. Scouts is not compulsory- non Christians can choose other organisations. School is compulsory- non Christiqns have no choice.

In all the many, many assemblies that I have sat through no one has ever mentioned dying or heaven. I have also never sung 'Jesus wants me for a sunbeam'-I can't help thinking that some people are going back to their own school days and haven't much experience of modern assemblies.
You would be very lucky if your 5 yr old could tell you anything about the school day-mine certainly couldn't! It doesn't mean that they are not learning things and making their own conclusions.
If I went to live in Malta I would expect my DCs to be exposed to Catholicism, if I went to live in Pakistan I would expect them to be exposed to Islam. I wouldn't expect them to become Muslims or Catholics (although they may). UK is a Christian country and I would expect them to be exposed to Christianity-I wouldn't expect it to make them Christians. What they eventually become will be up to them.

It is incredibly relevant. Either it does harm or it doesn't? My point is that if we can appreciate that the god bit in scouts or whatever is harmless and the organisation is beneficial in lots of other ways then what is the problem other than ideology being offended? Same with school.

Bonfire, sorry should clarify I think the anti-lobby pov is the molehill! It seems to me that the parents are upset and offended, not the DCs.

It isn't imposing views- you say what you believe and the school says what they believe (and in many cases it is 'what Christian's believe-bearing in mind that many teachers are not Christians).The DC is free to take or reject them. I am surprised that people think that DCs are such empty vessels-they are generally quite opinionated if you bother to ask them!

exoticfruits - do they not say the Lord's Prayer any more then?

And what has happened to Jesus Wants Me For a Sunbeam then, has it been outlawed?!

Actually this is a relevant point - many parents have no idea what religious viewpoints their children are being exposed to, as (I'm guessing) it's not spelled out in the National Curriculum. Or is it?

The default position is that your child attends the assemblies. We were never given forms to tick if you wanted to withdraw them, you very much have to make that stand yourself.

But the Scouts are an overtly religious organisation. A non denominational state school shouldn't be.

I just don't understand why me not wanting my children to pray at school is me imposing my views on them, but the school wanting them to pray isn't the school imposing it's view.

But it's all just part of the general arrogance of people of faith thinking their views should take precedence over everyone else's.

"My point is that if we can appreciate that the god bit in scouts or whatever is harmless and the organisation is beneficial in lots of other ways then what is the problem other than ideology being offended?"

Well, as Seeker said, the main point is that scouts isn't compulsory by law.

My personal opinion is that the 'god bit' in scouts is something that would actively put me off letting my child join, and if there were similar organisations which didn't involve god I'd see that as a better option. If my child really wanted to join the scouts though I would let them, as it would be their decision. I'd be a bit eye rolling about it (not in front of the child) - whether that would make me a hypocrite or not depends on your point of view I suppose.

This has been copied from the Girl Guiding website -

Guiding does not subscribe to any particular faith or religion and believes that every member should be encouraged to take an active part in the religion or faith of her family and community.

Leaders and Commissioners should take account of the special requirements of the faiths of unit members ? such as dress, diet or holiday days ? when planning unit programmes and other events.

Attendance at any act of worship must always be voluntary and be seen as part of the spiritual development of the individual member. Attendance at church parade or any religious gathering is not part of the guiding programme.

No young member under 16 may attend a service of a faith or denomination other than her own, as a guiding event, without the consent of an adult with parental responsibility for her.

As the Promise taken mentions "My God" then that would cover any faith and I'm sure that there could be a changing of the wording for non-believers

I do think that the antis do their children a disservice. We are a long way from forcing religion down people's throats/worst excesses of catholic convent education here.

Why not credit your kids with the intelligence and ability to grow up and make their own decisions? In the meantime some bible stories, songs and learning about one or more religions won't do them any harm and will enrich their understanding of the world around them.

No-they do not say the Lord's Prayer any more-I can't recall even hearing it in a C of E school. I imagine that 'Jesus wants me for a sunbeam' is dated-it doesn't crop up in school hymn books.
My point entirely crumpet-I can't see why people won't credit their DCs with intelligence and the ability to draw their own conclusions. How many people even bother discussing the 'big questions' with their DCs? Not many I guess.

"Why not credit your kids with the intelligence and ability to grow up and make their own decisions?"

Precisely. They don't need to have worship thrust upon them by law at school, they can decide for themselves whether they want to go to church or other religious establishments.

My personal opinion is that the 'god bit' in scouts is something that would actively put me off letting my child join,

This seems to me censorship of the worst kind. The question is does your DC want to be a Scout.

Or are you saying that a little nudging towards the path of righteousness is all good

they can decide for themselves whether they want to go to church or other religious establishments.

And how easy is it going to be for a DC with atheist parents to say 'please will you take me to church?' . Our vicar was going to the ordination of a new priest who he met hanging around the church aged 11yrs, asking if he could go to the service. At the end he announced he was going to be a vicar and he did just that. However I would think that it very abnormal. A school assembly at least gives the DC some knowledge without having to make requests to parents.

"The question is does your DC want to be a Scout."

I have already answered that question.

btw the Girl Guide rules are interesting, it's a shame that although there is tolerance of other faiths, there is nothing written down to indicate tolerance of 'lack of faith'.

Sorry-so you did Bonfire.

"And how easy is it going to be for a DC with atheist parents to say 'please will you take me to church?' ."

Well, it's not very easy for a child who has decided that they don't believe in god either. They have the choice of attending worship at school, or asking their parents (who may or may not be amenable) to withdraw them from assembly.

"How many people even bother discussing the 'big questions' with their DCs? Not many I guess."

ime it's impossible to avoid even if you wanted to. Children always ask stuff like 'what happens when you die', 'who made us', 'where did we come from', it's only natural.

Well, for that matter, how easy is it for a child from a Christian family to become an atheist? Why don't you credit your children with the intelligence to make their own minds up without having their Christianity reinforced at school. Are you afraid they might be indoctrinated into atheism? Why not let them hear about it and draw their own conclusions?

The Scout/Girl Guide etc Promise can be altered to fit other faiths but not to fit for those of no faith.

I would love to see the outcry if a school held an overtly atheist assembly. I imagine a large number of parents would remove their children and the Daily Mail would be appropriately indignant.

Since there is no proof that there is a god, why should children be expected to participate in it.

Listening to a story - and perhaps singing a song is one thing (there are plenty of secular songs if you want a moment of community cohesion), but the Lord's Prayer? I don't see why children should be expected to actually say those words unless they actually believe them.

Having a few minutes for quiet reflection is one thing, but expecting them to receit a prayer - which most do a bit like saying their 2x table and actually don't think about the meaning of the words. Which makes it even more pointless.

You do not need to try religion to learn about it.

Well, for that matter, how easy is it for a child from a Christian family to become an atheist?

Terribly easy. Mine are Christened and taken to church and Sunday School. They said 'we don't want to go and we don't believe in God' and I said 'fine'. They haven't been since. No one has yet explained why this should upset me or alter our relationship in any way. Forcing them to go to church was hardly going to make them into Christians! They didn't ask to be excluded from assembly.