Concerned about son's year 2 teacher and grouping

[TheBFactor]

Hello everyone
I am new here.
I have a wonderful, witty, energetic, extremely bright boy who is a summer baby, hence one of the youngest in a class of 30. We have been told since Reception that he is "immature" and behind the rest since the day he started Reception. The class teacher was very positive at the beginning of this year and seemed to really "get" my son finally, but more recently they seem to have turned negative again. He does not have Special Needs, but has been persistently grouped (I think for both Literacy and Maths) with a SEN boy and 2 overseas children whose English ability is weak. I am told my son is doing very well in Literacy (although they say he does not appear to focus on his writing - according to the teacher it is becacuse he can't be bothered !).

The class teacher says his attitude makes him extremely "disadvantged" and predicted taht he will be "disadvantage" next year also. She then proceeded to name various children in the class and make direct comparisons with other children, telling me very personal and private issues about other children and their abilities.

I am an educator (higher education level) myself - it is against the confidentiality rules for a teacher to talk about other students in such detail and make direct comparisons. My son ought to be compared to an ideal "age group" not to others in the class. I have been keeping an eye on him this year as I do not wish to destroy his confidence. He is naturally an extrovert, confident little boy, but he has said on numerous occassions that he feels he is bottom of the class and that the other children think so too - a few have called him babyish and I wonder how much of that come's from the teacher's attitude towards him.

Luckily, because of his graet personality, he has close friendships with several other boys and seems to be happy at school, but I am really concerned as the school are very good at having one way dialogues with me, i.e. they talk, but never listen to anything I have to say about him. They seem to think they know more about him than I do and that their reasons for placing him in whatever group is absolutely right. The negative labelling of boys is quiet common at schools I'm afraid. The quiet, shy girls seem to get away with things and the boys don't. I'm trying to get my son out of the labelling scenario.

A boy and a girl have so far been pulled out of the same class. When I spoke to their parents they had similar concerns, the other boy was also one of the youngest. The girl's mother (the girl had a learning disability) said to me in private that her daughter's emotional well-being wasn't being addressed in this class. This rings alarm bells for me.

It's meant to be an Ofsted Grade 1 school, yet I hear things from others that are similar to my views, that they are more concerned about ticking Ofsted boxes than they are about the needs of individual children.

So what now? Do I pull him out and take him to another school which is less Ofsted glorified, or do I write to the Head (usually it's chats that are not written down so I want it written down) and ask for a written reply? Should I ask them to switch my son around as I see no justification why such a bright little boy (even they have admitted he is intelligent) is in the weakest group where he is not being stretched ?

The taecher says my son is NOT naughty - he has also never been accused of being aggressive, hitting or swearing (thank goodness as it woudl be untrue any way). For some strange reason (perhaps because the teachers have decided they doesn't like me for asking questions?) I think my son is very much on the teacher's radar so gets noticed more often for whatever he does (he has been sent outside the classroom on quite a few occassions on the most absurd reasons like switching off the light by mistake or carrying on with something when the teacher had asked him to stop and she had not waited for him to explain that he had not heard her!)
I noticed on a recent class trip that my son was told off more often than other boys, even though others were behaving quite badly by most parents/teachers standards my son was extremely well behaved. I see a lot of unfair treatment going on. He is on the teacher's radar while others seem to be below it and get away with things he can't. Please help.

Hi BFactor

Your post has really struck a chord with me as I am finding myself in exactly the same position with my DS, albeit he is in yr1.

DS is a beautiful, interesting and extremely entertaining little boy, however, his extrovert and somewhat slightly eccentric nature is seen as a problem by his extremely negative teacher. He is a summer baby too and admittedly has a short attention span.

Parents evening was a disaster as I left feeling so deflated and incompetent. Apparently DS is the "class clown" and behaviour is a "real issue" (apparently he torments other children when they are sat on the carpet for story time! His teacher told me that she thinks it is down to a "lack of confidence". She didn't seem to want to discuss how well he is doing academically, his teacher preferred to focus on the negative aspect of his behaviour, and so I have no idea how he is doing. I presume he is doing ok as he will read (currently on ORT Level 5 and enjoys me reading books like Whinnie the Pooh etc), do his Maths homework with little difficulty and will (occasionally) write by his own free will, although this is not very often as he prefers to play.

DS has also never had star of the week, top table, writing certificate or reading certificate. These certificates are given to children in his class each week so from September four different children have received a certificate each week and DS has not received one. I definitely think this is an extremely cruel way to treat a child and may explain his alleged "lack of confidence" which his teacher insinuated had been harboured at home!!

Also, DS was in a class play at Christmas time and when I dropped him off I asked if I could help him get into his outfit - her reply was "Yes that would be a great help as DS is very slow".

Finally, DS has been saying recently that he is "stupid" and "I can't do this" and I am wondering if the classroom negativity is starting to get to him. Anyone who has ever heard a five year old say "I am stupid" knows how sole destroying it is.

I think I am going to make an appointment to see DS teacher after half term as I think things are getting out of hand although I am not sure it will do DS any good. Hopefully his yr2 teacher will be better and his confidence will start to improve.

I really look forward to hearing how you get on BFactor and I hope you manage to sort things out as you DS sounds lovely

oscarsmum Your ds seems to be having the same issues in year 1 as mine did.

Please do go and see the teacher...I hope you get a better response than I did!

coccyx - you really are missing the point, you bang on about look at the childs behaviour. boundaries etc... and the fact that the OP will not listen to anything unless it is positive, etc,etc,etc...your views are exactly what a lot of the thread is talking about - always seeing that the school or teacher must be right and the child must be wrong. What the OP describes does not even sound like any of the issues you describe! Where is the school/teacher responsibility in this partnership? Very tiring...

sorry coccyx but missed your point on first time through thread and felt had to respond!

Apparently DS is the "class clown" and behaviour is a "real issue" (apparently he torments other children when they are sat on the carpet for story time! His teacher told me that she thinks it is down to a "lack of confidence". She didn't seem to want to discuss how well he is doing academically
but these things are important as they will affect his academic achievement and she isn't blaming him but explaining why she thinks he feels the need to act this way ... Also, DS was in a class play at Christmas time and when I dropped him off I asked if I could help him get into his outfit - her reply was "Yes that would be a great help as DS is very slow". at getting changed...

oscarsmumm - it IS soul destroying I feel really sad for you and your ds. No child/human being deserves to be labelled and tagged and told that he/she is one thing or the other. There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy, I have seen it happen to many many children, they suffer from it as adults. They have low self esteem, they feel crushed by the system.

May I at this point say that the real turn around for me on all this fuss about BOYS - and please notice that most of us here are talking about BOYS - came when I googled and found a wonderful, entertaining, intelligent, thoroughly researched book called "The Trouble with Boys" by Peg Tyre [ps- I'm not advertising here and have no connection to the author ; ]

Please please read it if you are the parent of a lively, energetic, "class clown" with a zest for life and a wicked sense of humour. Bad adults and bad schools just don't get them.

My son had a particular sort of fasination with a cartoon character when he was 4 - 5. The school immediately latched on to this, saying that he was showing signs of "repetitive" behaviour. An intelligent specialist (god bless her) said to me he was showing nothing but the signs of a child in distress at school who was finding it difficult to cope (for 6 long hours a day) in a school focused on literacy and maths from the year dot. She said he was going into his cartoon character world for comfort because that world made him feel safe.

The school was convinced the habit would continue, we were convinced he would grow out of it - we were proven right. They never apologised for the stress and trauma they put us through with their ridiculous negtaivity and assumptions based on non-scientific "hunches" about what his problems were. His teachers all behave like wannabe-child psychologists. The idiotic Head once asked me if my son enjoyed walking on the cracks in the pavement. Talk about bleeding psycho-babble !!!!

I was foaming at the mouth having heard so much rubbish and never replying because they scare the hell out of me.

This book changed my life, it opened my eyes to the realities of education for boys who are tagged and labelled as one thing or the other at the tender age of 4/5/6 all the way to secondary school. Sadly in the wrong environment/school the label never gets removed. In the USA they have been particulary good at getting such boys diagnosed and put on medication at the drop of a hat.

I wish I had read this book well before I had read the damned Ofsted report at ds current school.

Your support here and this book have saved my sanity

''In the USA they have been particulary good at getting such boys diagnosed and put on medication at the drop of a hat. ''

Sorry - have I missed the point here?
Are you saying that this is good?

I have read that book bfactor It doesnt apply exactly to my ds1 but its a fascinating read.

Your last post reminded me of something I had forgotten...

...when ds1 was still in the pre school we had a parents evening with the nursery teacher. She told us that ds1 was making progress (he took a while to settle...in hindsight he was far too young) then she put on a very serious face and said;
"but I am afraid that * sometimes points".

Me: "Erm....yes? And?"

Her: "Well, I thought I should let you know"

?????????????????????????????????????????????

No stoat - most certainly not - I said "drop of a hat" which if you read in context means it is a terrible thing to do.

RMCW

I had a look at the GMC, GTC and NMC websites. They all say much the same: "We deal with fitness to practice cases, ie serious professional misconduct or failure of competence severe enough to require the removal of the individual's right to work. Issues of poor practice or conduct should normally be raised at a local level first".

So I suspect that only 2% of GTC cases get the teacher struck off because a large proportion of initial complaints were made to the wrong organisation. The NMC has a reputation amongst nurses for removing registration at the drop of a hat, and the GMC is very unpopular among doctors precisely because they always have a majority of non-medics when assessing fitness to practice.

I think it's unfair to blame individual teachers for the failings of the entire education system. I also blame the system for failing to remediate or weed out the terrible teachers. I despair of finding a solution to manage the institutionally terrible schools though. IME and that of many on these boards, OFSTED seem to have a particularly soft spot for schools which fail the most vulnerable dc.

I agree maria re: OFSTED

If you have a summer born (boys in particular) thsi is interesting:

"Teacher expectancy effects may contribute to birthdate effects - teachers may not take children's relative levels of maturity into account when making assessments of their ability and may therefore label younger children as less able than their older peers.

Evidence from developmental psychology suggests that children between the ages of four and five may not be ready, developmentally, for formal education. Birthdate effects appear to be greatly reduced in countries where formal education begins at a later age. There needs to be a careful consideration of what is best for all children in the early years of schooling, based on solid evidence from psychological research."

Source:

• Tim Oates is group director, Assessment Research and Development, Cambridge Assessment. This is an edited version of the foreword.

More information

Birthdate Effects: A Review of the Literature from 1990-on by Elizabeth D A Sykes, John F Bell and Carmen Vidal Rodeiro is at www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/ca/News_Room/Latest_News/News?id=1 27902

As the mother of two summer borns I say from personal experience neither were labelled by their teachers as less able than their older peers just the opposite. My eldest child's teacher said he was probably the most able child she had taught in her 30+ teaching career ...
In my present class the most able has a late July birthday

bfactor
That was certainly the case for my ds1....he was nowhere near ready for formal schooling at 4. He just seemed so confused by it all. I remember his nursery teacher asking him why he had put certain objects in a certain pattern and he said "because you told me to!" Not the answer she wanted, albeit an honest one!
It is my biggest regret that I did not keep him back a year.
ds2 is a september baby so we shall see......
Now ds 1 has moved schools (and LAs) it will mean ds2 will start school the month he turns 5. Am hoping this will make a difference for him.

Interestingly, mrz the old HT at my sons old school told the parents at our introduction meeting in no uncertain terms that it was not a "good idea" to have babies in the summer!!!!! She was definately of the opinion that they struggled, both socially, emotionally and academically from being younger than their classmates.

oscarsmum I really feel for you. My ds1 came home after only 4 weeks in year 1 and told me he had a "stupid brain".

I sobbed all night.

Leaving him in that environment was the worst thing I could have done. His y1 teacher just didnt give a damn (when he was there that is) and despite meetings with the teacher and acting HT nothing changed.

His y2 teacher was lovely, but the damage had been done.

If there is any way you can move your son to another school, then do so...I hope you dont think I am being cheeky, but I wish someone had given me that advice!

x

RMCW I think it's down to expectations if you send out the message that the younger members of the class will struggle more than their peers then the children are going to have an additional barrier to learning before they even begin.

At my old school all the kids in the lower tables were summer born - one or two summer borns sat in the top table but the trend was very clear even in a class of 30. But of course being a summer born doesn't mean you can't to ready for the top table it just makes it less likely.

Perhaps if you don't have top and lower tables it makes a difference ...

Everybody keeps talking about teacher expectancy and teachers having a bad effect on a child's self perception. Am I the only one with a child whose low self esteem is all to do with comparing himself to the other children? And whose problems were actually worse before the introduction of ability tables, for precisely those reasons? Ds' teachers were lovely and supportive but the real impact was seeing how all the children around him were whizzing through the things that he couldn't understand at all.

Nothing the teachers or I could say could actually counteract his real experience, which was that "other children can read/write/tie their shoelaces and I can't, therefore I must be dim and might as well give up trying"

This started in Reception when he genuinely did not have the developmental age to keep up with the other 4/5 yos. Unfortunately, now that he does (in Yr 6), we can't take that attitude out of him.

I don't know what the answer would have been- probably a later school start. I think he would have thrived in the Scandinavian system: my nephews were very similar in development, but had caught up by the time they had to start school at 6.

But it seems unfair to blame the teachers: they couldn't lock the other children up in a dark room for ds to stop noticing.

That's a radical thought Mrz - one you'll agree that not many teachers seem willing to entertain. I'd love to see the end of ability tables - I have seen very negative behaviour in the class - overly competitive behaviour - children declaring that they are good at maths while others aren't, reading too is a competition rather than a pleasure for many kids - the child who was first to finish the reading scheme really hated reading, laughing at kids who struggled to read - I guess it could have been nipped in the bud by the teacher but they seemed to believe the more cut throat the harder the kids tried, competition among peers was seen as the route to getting better SATs results and that's all that matters in some schools. As I've said before in my more innocent sads I used to believe SATSs results were the definite sign of good teaching - I know better now.

No cory sadly lots of children are hard on themselves and make comparisons with siblings or friends.

pinkcushion not radical at all we don't have top or bottom tables in my school from Y1 -6

Interesting you don't have tables from year 1-6 mrz. Do the children help each other? How does it work? I think grouping pupils according to ability from reception - year2 is very harsh. It's too early for that. I would be inclined to think that grouping by ability from year 3 would be beneficial but I'm not sure..

With ability tables, surely a lot depends on the school ethos and how it's done. All children in every school will compare, so it's up to school to make sure self esteem isn't put at risk.

Haven't a clue how normal it is, but at my son's school (very normal state primary), they're in ability groups for literacy, maths and science, but for each subject area, they could be with different children. They're also on a mixed ability table for most other activities. It's all very fluid, so they move between tables a lot. Everyone knows they're good at something - doesn't seem to matter if it's physical, creatively or purely academic, it all holds equal weight. Key thing seems to be the emphasis on effort and teamwork - they get most praise for trying to the best of their ability and also for working well together. They're also given regular individual targets to meet, which are used to prove to them that they're progressing and make them feel positive about trying. Seems to work well, across a very mixed ability class, though I can see it takes a good teacher to manage it all.

I meant radical as in not many teachers take that approach. I have heard you take of it before and I would love my kids to have been in a class that didn't sit the kids according to ability.

We all seem very concerned about "ability" as if it's set in stone. It is not, in fact some of the children who left Year 2 with level 3 last year, started from a lower starting point at the beginning of the year (e.g. 1B or even 1C) than many of their peers. Children progress at different rates and, I agree, it is sometimes to do with readiness. Assessment and leveling pupils' attainment is all to do with planning next steps in learning (and monitoring quality of teachers)
"Ability tables" are usually so teachers can differentiate the tasks and support they provide for the children; so that they can meet the individual child's needs.
The alternative option is to give everyone the same task. Then parents (and children)would be concerned the work was too hard or too easy for them. e.g. spelling CVC words when their child doesn't know their letters sounds yet, or can already spell CVCs and needs CVCCs and CCVCs. Good teachers move these groups around frequently e.g. in maths they have a place dependent their need relating to number, but today we are doing "time" and their "ability" in that is different to number, so today we all sit in different places.