I wish it was easier to talk about terminations (apologies if upsetting)

[Thurlow]

It feels like it is one of the great taboos and I don't dare talk about it IRL.

It's playing on my mind as I had a termination just under a year ago, so newborn babies are a bit of a touchy spot at the moment.

I am comfortable that we made the right decision but as a 30-something mum in a long term relationship, I know it is not a common choice nor it is one that many people might even understand or approve of.

But knowing it was the right decision doesn't mean I have completely forgotten about it or that I don't ever want to talk about it. I had the counseling that was offered, I am fine with my choice - but it's still there.

But I feel like I can't talk about. Sadly, many of my friends are going through problems TTCing right now, including some very, very tragic experiences. I know the most inappropriate thing I could ever say to them would be to tell them I terminated a potentially healthy baby.

99.9% of the time it is no problem but every now and again, people ask me when we might think about having another DC, or I feel I am in a conversation where I am essentially lying and dancing around the subject. I nearly mentioned it completely by accident to a very good friend the other day, a friend who would probably be very upset if she heard about it.

Why does it feel like such an awful taboo? Selfishly, why do I feel like I have to keep this secret from people? I feel like even those who wouldn't be personally hurt by the decision would probably be 'disappointed' that I made that decision, or perhaps think less of me.

It's even taken me a while to be open about this under my usual username. How bad is that?

I might be sensitive about this at the moment, but sometimes it feels as though "you made that decision, you live with it".

Is it just me? Does anyone else understand?

(Sorry this is a bit waffly...)

I have had six miscarriages. There will be no condemnation from me towards anyone making the decision that a termination is right for them. Their life is not my life.

I sometimes read (and still more occasionally post on) unplanned/unwanted pg threads and the 'you'll cope' advice gives rise to some disquiet in me too. People respond to situations in favour of the outcome which they can cope with best. So in a very different manifestation, but actually quite a similar mechanism, I have had people telling me it is time to give up ttc (I also have two children, so this is often combined with the advice to be 'grateful' for what I have). This is because the idea of me going through this again and again is a difficult and uncomfortable one to them. I am the one who chooses to take it upon myself and carry on, and I have my own reasoning. I think the mechanisms here are similar. People feel uncomfortable with someone choosing to end a pregnancy.

I have on a thread said 'I think you should have the baby' (or words to that effect) before, but only where it was absolutely clear from the OP's posts that she very much wanted the baby and did not have the strength or resources to withstand external pressure.

I agree, Picardy, I think because a lot of posters would go through with a pregnancy then the advice given isn't always that helpful, even if it is very well meaning. OP's might word their original post quite vaguely but you can get the impression that they want someone to tell them it is alright if they don't think they can go ahead with the pregnancy; instead they often get posters trying to work through the practical problems, which isn't what they want to hear.

I've been thinking about a different board for termination discussions and I keep thinking it really is a missing bit on MN. The antenatal choices board is a mixed bag and is predominantly filled with posts from women with very much wanted pregnancies who are facing difficult decisions. It seems quite insensitive to mix in posts from posters who don't want to continue a pregnancy in with those posts.

I've read 1 in 3 women has a termination
we should be able to discuss it
we make the best decisions we can at the time

I had a termination 18 months ago and I've never had a moments regret. I have spoken to a few people about it mainly open minded friends. I was surprised at my sisters reaction, she thought I was making a mistake.
She told me SHE could never have an abortion, I failed to see what that had to do with MY decision

I'm Irish so termination is taboo here but I have found its mainly the older generation Catholics. I hope that mine and the next generation will be more open minded and speak honestly about the subject.

Great idea to have a separate area on MN for women who want to talk about their terminations.

LucyBabs I am involved in supporting Irish women who travel to the UK for abortions. They often tell me they can't discuss it with anyone at home. Makes me so angry that they are forced through the expense & stress of travel to the UK.

there's a bit of a description and some quotes from the caitlin moran piece that winifred mentions

this is a key passage:

"My belief in the ultimate sociological, emotional and practical necessity for abortion became even stronger after I had my two children. It is only after you have had a nine-month pregnancy, laboured to get the child out, fed it, cared for it, sat with it until 3am, risen with it at 6am, swooned with love for it and been reduced to furious tears by it that you really understand just how important it is for a child to be wanted."

While I'm 50/50 on CM a lot of the time, I found her openness about abortion so refreshing and admirable.

I definitely agree that already having one or more children affects how you view a termination. For some people it will be that the fetus is too real even at 6 weeks to consider a termination. For other people it is the knowledge of what pregnancy and raising a child involves which makes them sure they can't go through it again at that stage.

Sometimes decisions are made for the family you already have.

I'd forgotten that bit about "good AIDS" and "bad AIDS" - that's a perfect analogy.

I'm lurking on this thread and am very grateful to you for starting it, though i don't feel brave enough to fully contribute yet. I'm in a similar position to the one darkersideofthemoon described, and struggling with my emotions somewhat.

But i'm reading the thread and agree that we need a safe place to be able to talk about abortions.

Bad news I'm afraid:

'Thanks for your email about this (and sorry about our previous automated reply!) We completely sympathise with all the points you raise, and we understand that there is a great need for safe places where women can talk about their experiences. However, we're afraid that we don't think Mumsnet is able to be this place. We feel that in order to have an effective and, most importantly, safe forum for women to talk about abortion, it would need to be carefully monitored and maintained. We run a policy of post moderation, which wouldn't be appropriate for the type of board you envisage. So realistically, Mumsnet doesn't really have the ability or resources to adequately administrate such an area.

Mumsnet aims to facilitate peer to peer support for parents, and we're constantly amazed at the high level of support and advice that is posted on the boards every day. Whilst many posters have no doubt found it cathartic to post about their abortion on Mumsnet (and we'll pleased that we were able to bring about), we, nor our posters, can claim to be experts in the field. We would be doing the woman who used our forum a disservice if we attempted to create a designated area, but were unable deliver on the promise of a totally secure and safe space.

We're also aware of the fact that by virtue of setting up a safe haven, it's essentially waving a red flag at those who like to troll abortion boards - experience tells us that unfortunately these people do exist. As you know, Mumsnet really is a lifelife for a lot of people, and we'd be loathe to become even more of a target for trolls.

We do have a topic for people to discuss antenatal choices, which included abortion - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/antenatal_tests_choices. We've found the title is anodyne enough to avoid too many people with an agenda flocking to it. As ever, any posts that are reported to us that break our talk guidelines www.mumsnet.com/info/netiquette (which includes posts that are "seriously unpleasant"), will be removed. Of course, if there's a bigger problem with guideline breaking posts that we reaslise, please do let us know.

We hope you can understand our reasoning, and we are sorry we're not able to help on this occasion. The bottom line is we'd rather stick to the formula we know works, and does manage to support women who have had abortions, rather than stretch ourselves too thin, and potentially cause more hurt.'

Hmm.

I'm a little unsure about that reply.

I get what HQ are saying but... as I said before, mixing abortion in with people struggling with decision on antenatal tests for much wanted pregnancies isn't a comfortable fit and I really don't think it helps anyone.

But I might be feeling cynical because I've gone back and read some old threads out of curiosity and they kind of weren't as supportive as I thought they might be.

I know MN is a very public forum, but I don't feel entirely comfortable with the reply that suggests "it's too difficult and too attractive for trolls so you can't have any area."

It's disappointing, but kind of what I expected: I think what it comes down to is the difficulty in moderating such an area. That's understandable.

I'm not sure about the point that having a special area would imply that those in the area or moderating it were experts: after all, the Relationships boards are full of people supporting each other through DV, alcohol problems etc, and there's just a disclaimer at the top saying that no poster is an expert and professional advice should be taken if needed.

It's also very angering that the existence of a minority of frothing anti-abortion posters is to some extent preventing the existence of a clearly marked support area. How are women supposed to know to go to 'antenatal tests and choices'?

And the problem is that most of the posts with an anti-abortion agenda which disrupt helpful discussions do not, in fact, break the Talk guidelines.

Hullo everyone,

Thank you to those who brought this thread to our attention, and to everyone who has posted and shared their thoughts and experiences so far.

We completely understand people's need for a secure, safe space to talk about termination. However, we're afraid that we don't think Mumsnet is able to be this place. We feel that in order to have an effective and, most importantly, safe forum for women to talk about termination, it would need to be carefully monitored and maintained. We have a policy of post moderation, which wouldn't be appropriate for this type of board.

We feel that we would be doing the women who used our forum a huge disservice if we attempted to create a designated area to discuss termination, but were unable deliver on the promise of a totally secure and safe space.

We're also conscious of the fact that creating a talk board purely for talk about termination would be in effect creating a big red target for trolls attracted to this subject, which is of course the exact opposite of what we'd want. We do have a topic for people to discuss antenatal choices, which includes abortion www.mumsnet.com/Talk/antenatal_tests_choices. We've found the title is anodyne enough to avoid too many people with an agenda flocking to it.

Of course, we will follow the thread with interest and if there's a strong demand we will have a think about what we might be able to do.

Well I for one am not happy with that response. Cop out, Mumsnet.

Question, MNHQ: theoretically, if there was a 'bus'-style long-running thread within Antenatal Tests and Choices specifically for termination support and chat, would you be willing to delete inflammatory/politicised/religious posts which appeared on it which were not in contravention, technically, of the Talk Guidelines but were inappropriate, insensitive and/or fighty? There's precedent for this in the recent 'please report gratuitous aggressiveness on AIBU campaign.'

This would not mean deleting the comments of those who might advocate continuing with a pregnancy, obviously. Only those posts which were sweeping moral judgements or nasty attacks by those whose weren't interested in the content of the thread, just condemning termination as a whole.

This seems to be one of the ways forward under the current system.

I really think we should talk more about this, and if anyone has suggestions or comments go for it.

That sounds good, the title of the thread could make it clear of the content so it didn't "intrude" on other users of that board by mistake, if that makes sense.

I'm inclined to agree with Darkside on this.

I think my biggest issue with this is some of the points brought up apply to other boards on MN, but those boards exist. There are a lot of boards which deal with sensitive issues but they are allowed, with the disclaimer that no one is giving professional advice. Think of the mental health board. So useful, but so sensitive.

There are also boards which will clearly attract trolls - feminism, religion, for example - so that argument actually rings a bit hollow to me.

I stand by my opinion that antenatal tests/choices isn't really the right name for a board that also deals with terminations. On the one hand, I was here for years before I realised it wasn't just a board dealing with bad nuchal fold results. On the other hand, that board is only dealing with the immediate issue when someone is trying to decide whether to terminate, and is not really the place for people dealing with issues post-termination.

While I don't think that is what HQ mean, the response smacks slightly of "it's just too difficult a topic and we don't quite know what our opinion is so we don't want to encourage people to talk about it too much." If anything, to me it actually just reinforces the idea that termination is a bit of a taboo and shouldn't be discussed openly.

We're talking about something which 1 in 3 women apparently go through during their life. So nearly 1/3 of MN users might have gone through a termination. Surely that in itself suggests that there will be people who want to talk about what has happened to them?

A long-running thread like the HG thread might be the answer, though I would say that as termination is such a personal thing posters are going to have such different experiences that one long thread probably isn't the right place to deal with crisis and issues. Someone who is struggling deserves their own thread, surely.

Lastly, I understand what you say about monitoring the thread, but nothing about this thread title says it is a discussion of whether a termination board is necessary, and also it is just one of hundreds of active threads in Chat. My OP doesn't mention that either. It's not going to attract the interest that might be there.

I'd be really interested in hearing what HQ have to say. I really do feel that the response above is actually reinforcing the fact that it is quite a taboo subject, when as I said before, if a third of women in the UK have had a termination, it deserves not to be a taboo.

I think that sounds like a good compromise. There have been similar long running threads for those who have had tfmr, but thats not the place to discuss general terminations.

Crossed post with Thurlow who I actually agree with. A standalone topic would be preferable.

I think that's a massively disappointing response from MNHQ - in fact it has really upset me. I'm not a parent and my only experiences with anything pregnancy related have been my two terminations. (Please don't judge me.) While I can always join in threads about cats, gardens, cars, etc. it feels like this aspect of my life is some horrible taboo I can't discuss openly.

I'm particularly disappointed MNHQ have directed people in the direction of the Ante-natal tests and choices board. Surely this is mainly aimed at people who've received difficult news from scans, and have to decide whether to terminate? No fuckinig way would I post in there if I was accidentally pregnant and needed to discuss termination.

I don't know - I just felt quite shocked at the flat out "we don't don't think Mumsnet is able to be that place." It's made me question whether I want to be part of this community. I might not be a parent but I've always felt totally welcome here until now.

Sorry if incoherent, this has really upset me.

and no judgement, Catkisser.

I was under the impression that Antenatal Tests and Choices was for people having to make a very difficult choice after receiving less than ideal scan/amniocentesis results. As someone who terminated a presumed healthy pregnancy I wouldn't dream of posting over there!

I do wish it were easier to talk about termination. I think, as a pp mentioned, one of the reasons it's so difficult to talk about struggling with a past termination (at least in my case) is because a termination was something I chose to do. There's definitely something of a 'you've made your bed, lay in it' sentiment. That and having the luxury of choice in the first place.

I've had more than one termination due to the combined pill failing. Previous terminations were absolutely the right choice but the most recent was 10 years ago and I still struggle with the choice I made. I was young, unemployed, living with my parents and only two months in to a new relationship. I wanted to continue with the pregnancy and was terrified of telling my boyfriend and when I did tell him and he gave me a big hug and said everything would be ok it was a huge relief. Until I found out his idea of ok was that I'd have an abortion and everything would go back to normal. Termination was the only outcome he found acceptable and I didn't think I could cope with raising a child myself in my circumstances at the time so I somewhat unwillingly agreed.

10 years on I'm now married to the boyfriend and so ready to start a family, yet DH is still feeling he's not. I'm in my 30's and have been diagnosed with a condition that has a high chance of causing fertility problems and DH is in his 40's so we're running out of time somewhat. I've never felt 100% comfortable with my choice to have the termination (I say my choice, because despite it being DH's suggestion it was ultimately my choice to go along with it), but knowing what I know now I so regret that choice. Our relationship would have almost certainly survived an unplanned child and it's beginning to look like DH will never feel ready to start a family due to fear of the unknown. I feel like I threw away my chance of becoming a mother and it's put a huge strain on our otherwise wonderful relationship.

Lth

You are not incoherent and I see what you mean Catkisser

I agree with the view that the ante-natal tests and choices is not the place for dealing with early terminations not related to an illness or problem with the pregnancy. I would feel very uncomfortable posting about wanting to terminate because I just didn't feel ready for another DC next to threads by people who have discovered an abnormality in their unborn child.

These are very different things and I think it's a bit insensitive to everyone to shove them together.

I can see the point about trolling but there are other areas on mn that are clearly going to attract trolls (the whole of feminism) and lots of other very sensitive areas such as miscarriage, mental health, etc. So I really don't think these are valid excuses to avoid the subject.