I wish it was easier to talk about terminations (apologies if upsetting)

[Thurlow]

It feels like it is one of the great taboos and I don't dare talk about it IRL.

It's playing on my mind as I had a termination just under a year ago, so newborn babies are a bit of a touchy spot at the moment.

I am comfortable that we made the right decision but as a 30-something mum in a long term relationship, I know it is not a common choice nor it is one that many people might even understand or approve of.

But knowing it was the right decision doesn't mean I have completely forgotten about it or that I don't ever want to talk about it. I had the counseling that was offered, I am fine with my choice - but it's still there.

But I feel like I can't talk about. Sadly, many of my friends are going through problems TTCing right now, including some very, very tragic experiences. I know the most inappropriate thing I could ever say to them would be to tell them I terminated a potentially healthy baby.

99.9% of the time it is no problem but every now and again, people ask me when we might think about having another DC, or I feel I am in a conversation where I am essentially lying and dancing around the subject. I nearly mentioned it completely by accident to a very good friend the other day, a friend who would probably be very upset if she heard about it.

Why does it feel like such an awful taboo? Selfishly, why do I feel like I have to keep this secret from people? I feel like even those who wouldn't be personally hurt by the decision would probably be 'disappointed' that I made that decision, or perhaps think less of me.

It's even taken me a while to be open about this under my usual username. How bad is that?

I might be sensitive about this at the moment, but sometimes it feels as though "you made that decision, you live with it".

Is it just me? Does anyone else understand?

(Sorry this is a bit waffly...)

Thurlow, yes, I can totally imagine that you would worry you were being insensitive in telling a friend with fertility problems that you've had a termination.

But I wonder if your feelings about your friend's reaction are more about your own fears about what she 'must think' of you, and your own guilty feelings comparing her struggle to conceive to your termination. They may not reflect how your friend would actually feel, though of course - caveat - it does depend on the friend and naturally you know best about that.

I did not feel aggrieved at my friend at terminating her pregnancy. It was hers. She got pregnant. Lots of my other friends have got pregnant. She didn't have hers. They did. It's all the same to me. In fact, her situation is slightly more bearable to me because it doesn't make me feel like the only person stuck outside of happy-mum-perfect-life-land. It helps me to see that I'm not defective or a failure, that life's full of difficulties and actually peoples' lives are full of secrets and traumas that aren't apparent from the outside. I know that sounds dark, but it's true. It is much more upsetting to me to have a FB feed constantly jammed with pregnancies announced 4 months after weddings, 'pregnant me!' selfies and scan pics.

The very fact that I'm wondering about even posting this, given how bloody dark it sounds, goes to show how much I need my friend to talk to.

Thank you for starting this thread. Wish I was strong enough to contribute

flipwit We are here, if you ever feel strong enough.
Be kind to yourself.

I had an abortion 14 years ago.

The minute I made the decision to terminate, I felt better. And the second it was over, I felt such a weight lift off me. I've never regretted the decision, it was 100% the right one, and I feel so relieved the option was open to me, and that I still feel so sure it was right.

I still don't talk about it with anyone, though. I haven't told anyone about it, aside from DH (it pre-dates him by several years) and one other friend, who admitted to having an abortion first.

Other that, I haven't told a soul.

People should talk about it more. And then perhaps the general public and the nutter contigent will realise how normal, and incredibly prevalent it actually is. Abortion will never, ever go away. So let's talk about it, and help the numerous women who will go through the experience to feel less alone.

I had a termination 16 years ago, it was definitely the right decision but I felt incredably guilty for a long time.

Ive had a lot of difficulty ttc and holding on to pg since, 2 early mc and a late one. Nothing to do with the termination but of course that made me beat myself up a little more!

Been thinking about my last post and I suppose what I mean is that yes, it should be easier to talk about having had an abortion, and it should be easier to talk about MC and infertility as well.

Because if no-one talks about it, then each of us that it's happened to feels like we're different to 'everyone else'.

But a huge proportion of 'everyone else' is women who have had terminations, or multiple miscarriages, or suffer from inferitility. The stats say I must know people who've been through the same thing I have. And yet they're invisible. And I'm left feeling like everyone else is OK and I'm not, and many women on this thread are left feeling that they have a secret which can't be shared.

A lot of this is due to a legacy of misogyny, of shame and secrecy about sex, pregnancy and childbirth, and of religious condemnation.

"So why does it feel like such an awful taboo?"

Maybe because, once you strip away the extenuating arguments (a woman's right to control over her body/cases of rape etc), what is actually happening is one person deciding to end the life of another.

And under current (by which I mean those established for hundreds of years) societal norms, taking another person's life is only permissible in a few, extreme circumstances: war (not applicable); self-defence (against actual/perceived threat of serious physical violence) - also not applicable; the death penalty.

Maybe the judgements that we fear from other people are actually projections of our own deep conflicted feelings about what we are actually doing when we end a pregnancy. And maybe it feels like such a taboo because actually, that's what it IS.

It's not my intention to upset people. I'm sorry if I do.

The day that we don't think twice about killing an unborn child who simply 'wasn't planned', is a bad day, IMHO.

It was only a matter of time

Doesn't MN have a kind of passworded community for the Special Needs topics?

Would it be possible for them to set up something similar for this kind of support thread?

It seems such a shame that these conversations are always derailed into moralistic fights over Whether Abortion Is Right Or Wrong.

The OP asked a question. I was genuinely offering a possible answer.

Bit disingenuous CS.

It's clear from the OP that the OP wants to talk about her experiences in a non-judgemental environment, as do all the women who've posted below.

She knows full well, as do we all, that many people like you disapprove of abortion. You didn't need to state your moral objections to abortion, or to imply that people who have posted here are murderers.

You knew that what you wrote would upset people, and there's a very good chance that it will prevent women from coming on here and talking about their experiences. Well done.

Can't see any fight here. I appear to have killed the thread.

AdamLambsbreath: do you always advocate censorship of minority views, or only those minority views with which you don't personally agree?

I appear to have killed the thread: yeah.

If anyone of you guys above are still here, I'm going to e-mail MN about the possibility of creating a safe area where women who've been through termination can chat.

I've no idea if they'll be able to do it - it may not accord with site philosophy to have a 'protected' area - but it's worth a go.

I will let you all know what comes of it. I have taken a note of names and will PM all of you if/when I have a response.

It's such a shame it's so taboo, it really is. I was married and dd was ten months old when I became pregnant with ds. I was horrified. I was just getting settled in our new house, one child was easy, so I went to visit my gp DR smith. He told me he didn't refer for abortions due to,religious reasons, which really upset me, but said part of it anyway was counselling so he sent me for that. The woman was great, we were in there for about two hours, she was totally non judgemental just very practical. One thing I PERSONALLY felt and still feel (guilt wise) is that if we terminated this baby, I couldn't have any more, because then I'd be doing it purely for convenience - we had enough money, a home, a strong relationship etc.

After the counselling she took me aside and showed me a photo of a three year old- her "surprise". So we ended up having our surprise.

I've supported three friends through abortion, as in taken, collected, been to appointments and I hope they can talk to me any time about it. I never mention my story really, I just wanted to explain that you still feel guilt for thinking about it I suppose!

I'm still here Adam and think that's a good idea. Plus I love your name (and the Idol who inspired it!) and keep meaning to say so - now seems like a good moment.

I officially only know one woman who has had an abortion (and it wasn't her who told me) but I'm sure I know many more. The SATC episode that handled abortion was actually pretty good.

I have had 2 terminations, both in my 30s.

I am not remotely ashamed, and neither do I regret having them. I felt sorrow, but relief at the time, and am now glad that I did not go ahead with pregnancies that were not planned, were in fact actively resisted, at a time and circumstance of my life when I could not be a good parent.

But I don't talk about it much. Firstly, because it IS a taboo subject it is difficult to bring up because you might be talking with a vehement anti-choice advocate. Secondly the general view seems to be that abortion are a necessary evil and any woman with a conscience feels ongoing regret and trama at what must have been a difficult decision.(It wasn't great but it wasn't traumatic, the decision was clear cut and there is no regret), and thirdly because while there is no shame, there is privacy, and it does feel private. There are lots of things I don't talk about because they are private.

I'm prepared to discuss the matter with anti-choice advocates, but on policy / philosphy / political terms, not about my personal case.

Last time I'll post on this thread:

I wasn't being disingenuous. Simply offering a possible answer to the OP's question.

I don't think I posted in a judgemental way. I try not to judge anybody.

Given that I seem to be in a minority of one, I doubt I've put anyone off posting. I hope not, anyway.

Finally, I did not state my 'moral objections to abortion', nor did I imply - what you said I implied, which I won't repeat, because that would be needlessly cruel and inflammatory, and contrary to the spirit of my original post.

As you were, ladies. I wish you well.

Sorry I missed this until this morning.

I suspect it was only a matter of time. I am interested in a discussion of why we feel we can't talk about it - personally, while I have my issues at times thinking about what I did, I am not in need of talking about it deeply, but am very aware that I don't feel like I should mention it at all, which is something that I was interested in exploring. (But Adam you are completely right in referring to it as a "secret which can't be shared" which I think is my own personal issue with what happened - that I feel I am carrying a secret from friends I have known for decades and shared so much else with, a secret that now, a year later, has probably morphed into something bigger than it should be)

But many, many women do need to talk about it and I agree, I think MN would do well to have an area where this can be discussed more openly or safely. It feels like an area of MN that is missing, actually. It feels even like a bit of a taboo to talk about wanting a termination in many situations. How many posters, with an unexpected pregnancy, nc to talk about it if they feel that a termination is probably what they want? I know I did, back then.

do you always advocate censorship of minority views, or only those minority views with which you don't personally agree?

No one is advocating censorship. I do feel that there is a time and a place for certain discussions, though. Your post, CS, errs towards the judgemental as opposed to just joining the discussion. As in, you say what is actually happening is one person deciding to end the life of another, which is your opinion (and one you are fairly entitled to) - but it is still passing judgement on those of us who have had a termination. The sentence "perhaps you feel uncomfortable because you are worried that the person you are talking to will think that you have simply decided to end another person's life" is the non-judgemental way of airing that opinion.

Thank you for contacting MN, Adam, that is a great idea. It is such a sensitive topic and it seems as though it does need to be discussed more. The statistics clearly suggest that many women in long term relationships are having abortions, but no one is talking about it.

That's the thing that angers me most. Even before I had a termination I always believed that each person can cope with different things: so I could cope with less money but others couldn't: I can't cope with life threatening sickness, others can etc. Why is it so hard for some people to understand that? I don't believe that we fear judgement for ending a life though cslewis as society doesn't see foetuses of less then 12 weeks, at least as far as I am aware we mourn the potential that has been lost.

I think a supportive space would be fantastic.

Yes, because you never know when you want to talk about it, do you? I get the impression that plenty of people have had support at the time of making a decision on places like MN, but you might find a year, two years, ten years later something happens which makes you think about it.

For example, the one year anniversary has made me think about it, but it has coincided with some friends having a tragic loss, and it made me think - god, there feels like there are so many people who I believe would be upset or judgemental to know I did this.

I meant see foetuses as people.

OK all, I have e-mailed MNHQ. I will let you know as soon as I have a response. I really hope that it will be possible, because like thurlow I feel it's a 'missing' area, and from posts above it looks like it would be used.

Thanks Winifred. Adam is so obscure that you're the first person ever to recognise him on here Got to go now, dishes to cletter wi' a twig [in joke]

I haven't RTFT yet but please remember that you having had a termination has no bearing on anyone else's ability to have a baby.
I had a termination years ago and it was 100% the right decision for me at the time, and I don't regret it at all. Last year when I was having trouble TTC, it didn't change my mind about whether or not the termination was the right decision. Broodiness/TTC can make you ultra-sensitive, but surely a true friend would never begrudge you for making a decision that was right for you and your family, even if it seems unfair to them that someone else has the "ability" to fall pregnant and chose not to continue with it.
Also, even if you don't regret your termination, you can still feel sad about it! It is allowed! Mine was quite physically traumatic, so it was upsetting, but it was still the right choice for me.
Take it easy on yourself.

I agree Adam, I would put my name behind the req to MN. We need to be able to speak without others wading in, citing that this is a "public forum, so I'll post what I like, thanks very much" to enable them to get across their biased views.

You can see from the tone of the thread that we need/want to talk & not debate the ins & outs.

I also think it might be a really helpful section for women who are considering having a termination or have one booked in and want to ask questions. It tends to come up on ante-natal tests/choices, which doesn't quite seem clear to me that it is the best place to go. Will report this thread to add my name to the call.

Of course people will post what they want where they want, but if it is a separate and clearly marked area then it might be easier to ask people not to post anything upsetting or hurtful.

That's a good point about asking questions thurlow.

And yes, people do have a right to their opinions. But termination seems to be one of those hot topics that will always attract yelling rather than debate, leading to every thread which mentions termination attracting the same old anti-abortion flack and often ending in a bunfight. The trouble is, the yelling drowns out what people are actually trying to say.

different's right, what's needed is a conversation that's not derailed and not politicised.