Can't bear this anymore, is termination at 15 16 weeks just going to make it all worse?

[Sleeplessinnorthlondon]

I'm going to delete my profile soon as so ashamed of all of what's happened but desperate for any advice anyone can offer. In summary, conceived when thought couldn't, just about to start ivf, and didn't know. Had two different due dates from different scans but looks like could have drunk heavily 16, 17 and 18 dpo. Stopped as soon as found out but can't shake the guilt despite doctors all telling me it would probably be fine. Would never have terminated for downs or any condition the child was going to have anyway, but cannot bear idea of having spoilt life chances of child that would have been healthy through stupidity. Tried counselling, midwife, friends, all been so kind but can't shake terror and guilt and suspect will never shift and will be terrible mother when born as so anxious and guilty. Just can't bear any of this any more, none of the help I've tried to access is working and Marie stopes have said they can organise an abortion this week. Will mean hurting friends, family and above all darling darling husband but he has said will support me if it's the only way forward. So so desolate and terrified, everyone around me saying this is mental health issue not physical and probably right but in no state to bring child into the world like this anyway. Has anyone been in the same boat? Did the termination help or make it worse? Please help me.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say 3luckystars has a good point, which could have been made more sensitively. The OP is clearly very very unwell and what she's proposing is, even to the most casual observer, about to make her illness immeasurably worse.

Sleepless, lovely, when is your next scan?

As people said upthread, you might find that an enormous source of reassurance.

You do realise that any advice given to you by the professor via email will be very general comments as he will not be able to comment on your personal situation? I'm sure he was very careful not to have given you specific advice as he will not want to leave himself open to being sued by your DH if you take any action based on his advice. In fact, his input is probably much less reliable than the advice your own HCPs are giving you, because he will only be discussing his research - not your own specific situation.

Your renewed concerns are your illness speaking again. Having an abortion would only tackle the symptoms of your illness (and leave you open to ongoing problems indefinitely), you need to tackle the illness itself.

I hope you get the support and advice you so desperately need.

I also agree 3luckystars makes a good point. OP like to have all the facts at hand and that should include the facts about physically what happens during a late termination.

Sleeplessinnorthlondon - I've read your other thread.

You need some time as an in patient.

What real life support have you got today? Who have you spoken to about how you feel today?

sleepless I really feel for you. I just wanted you to know another person out there is thinking of you. I had a mc after ivf earlier this year so I understand the stress of infertility.

What I would say is that you drinking at 18dpo will have so little impact, as everyone has said. I truly feel this isn't about the drinking and that is just the point at which it has focussed. I wonder if having struggled to get pg for so long you convinced yourself you didn't want it any more (I know I did) and now aren't able to process that it is finally happening for you.

My other thought is that every one of us will hurt our offspring at some point in their lives. Be it because we turned our back for a second and they fell and grazed their knee, or we found ourselves in a horrible situation which had lasting psychological impact on them. But we don't disown them or give up on them, we do the best we can and deal with the situation we find ourselves in. This situation is the first of many as a mother you will find yourself in, please don't punish your baby for it when you want him/her so much.

Would you consider taking the pregnancy to term whilst dealing with the mh issues with a view that if things didn't improve your baby could be adopted by someone who desperately wants to give him/her a chance despite whatever ailments they may have?

Try and remember the good feelings you had last week and hold onto those. And remember unlikely may not be impossible but the odds are in your favour, just like other genetic testing undertaken during pregnancy. You haven't mentioned any worries in those other "unlikely" outcomes which is why I don't think this is about the baby or the drinking. Its about you and it won't be over if you terminate. I truly think the guilt will be worse when you cone through the mh issues and realise the gravity if the termination. The only way you can know for sure is to have your baby and love it. Being given life and your love will more than make up for any issues he/she may or may not have.

Please, please, please only consider termination as an absolute last resort - when you have the appropriate professionals, in front of you and advising. When you've spoken to all those who would be affected and taken into consideration their views, ideas and advice.

Mental health has a horrible habit of making us feel very unstable whilst simultaneously making us convinced our thoughts must be rational - our thoughts are valid, of course, but not always rational. Believe me, I know.

I also know how utterly grief stricken I was when I had to terminate my child. I'm still grieving. You never stop - you just adapt. Although termination would, of course, take your fears away about the health of your unborn child, it will only be replaced with possibly the most profound sadness, guilt, regret and anger you'll ever experience.

As someone who heavily researched my options, spoke to many, many people for advice and waited a month before having to make a decision that was truthfully justified, I STILL struggle on a daily basis to make sense of it. My life is annotated by my loss - before pregnancy, after pregnancy. I feel that loss all the time, in every conceivable way.

I sincerely hope you get the help you need - and the help you want, and the help you deserve. You're in my thoughts - I've come out of lurk mode (as pregnancy board was triggering me) because I had to reply.

x

Oh this is heartbreaking , but I can reassure you the baby will be fine - my friend didn't have a clue she was even pregnant and was going out every weekend, last weekend a surprise arrival entered the world and he is a healthy baby boy!

sleepless how far along are you? I ask as my Dr confirmed that they could do the 20 week anomaly scan from 18 weeks; if you're that close, why don't you have that done first and see if it influences your decision?

Sleepless

You have not harmed your baby I got pregnant at 19 I was abit of a party girl to say the least. I drank a lot I now have a very happy very healthy 5 year old. I didn't find out till I was 8 weeks pregnant and it was due to me not handling my drink the night before!

Please do not listen to the monkey man. You're not a monkey you do not have a monkey womb.

I've also had a termination at 7 weeks and the damage was awful I ended up being sectioned twice. The termination isn't the answer to this.

Please stop googling. It's not helping you at all. Listen to mums listen to qualified doctors listen to therapists.

I'm sending you all my love

Sleepless a private anomaly scan is extremely detailed and can be done from 18 weeks and costs £150 approximately. Maybe a little higher in London. Please get that done first.

Nobody here is disputing (1) a woman's right to abort and (2) the fact that you are extremely unwell.

But please realise that the implications of this (absolutely unnecessary with regard to the baby) action will damage your health further.

1. You will have to give birth, labour, contractions, pushing and all. But give birth to a baby that won't live. Out won't be knocked out and wake up baby less. Please have this clear in your head

1. 5-6 more weeks and your baby can survive outside the womb in high chances.

1. Your marriage and your DH may be destroyed.

1. One day when you become well, this will come back and torment you, my dear. Not because of any kind of moral stupidity I am showing, I am pro choicer. But because, dear sleepless - the baby is healthy and wanted.

Please please please treat the person who is unwell. YOU. not the baby. YOU.

And I am also an academic faculty member, a university researcher. I don't know what the monkey prof told you, but it's a serious ethical violation.

Can't actually read this anymore!!

I'm finding it hard to read too. What else can any of us do to help this poor woman?

Sleepless you've been assured by many, many experts that damage is very unlikely. Lots of women have also told you that they drank as much and their kids are fine. Step away from Google. All this stuff about the risk of alcohol during pregnancy is not the problem. Your anxiety is. You will never have a pregnancy which is completely free of risks, no matter how careful you are, life is not like that. If you terminate this pregnancy because of this risk, you will find in the next pregnancy that you worry about eating a salad which might not have been washed and getting toxoplasmosis, or about sleeping on your right instead of your left, or about the possibility that the mayonnaise in your sandwich may have been made with raw eggs. Or you might fall down stairs, or get in a car accident, or ANYTHING.

When you get the right help, your thinking will improve and these sorts of worries will be fleeting concerns and not the all consuming dread that they are now.

Pregnancy hormones are horrendous , and I'm sure they are making this harder for you, but you will just have them back next time if you terminate and try again. You just need to find a way to manage your mental health with them.

I'm sure knowing that the pregnancy hormones are making this worse must make a termination seem like a way to just make the mental pain stop, but I don't think that's as simple a way out as it seems. I've not had a termination , but I did miscarry my first pregnancy, and after surgical management at about 14 weeks I can confidently say that I was batshit fucking insane from the massive hormonal changes for at least three weeks.

Sleepless have you considered carrying baby to full term and having them. And if you still decide you can't live with yourself, should there be anything wrong with baby, (even if there is it could have nothing to do with what you think you may have caused) you could give them up for adoption?

I only suggest this as it the only "get out clause"/rationale I can think of. To help you carry them full term and at least see that they could very well be ok.

Keep seeking professional help.

I've had a wobble for last couple days that maybe not all is well with my baby, after feeling very positive before. It can only really be put down to hormones as I have always been rational and level headed before.

Sleepless there are plenty of things you can focus on NOW that will help the baby. You could look at healthy diets, lots of spinach, eggs, porridge, fruit and veg etc. You could go for some walks etc.

I suggest this as clearly you are desparate for your child and maybe working on things you can help NOW will help you overcome the guilt you feel about the past.

Think of how many women drink, smoke and eat McDonald's through pregnancy yet have healthy babies, yours will be fine x

Sleepless I'm so, so sorry you are feeling like this.

It seems that your anxiety has kicked in again after reading one piece of research. Please think about this: What if the research is wrong? What if you terminate this pregnancy and then next year a further piece of research is done which totally discredits this one? What if another team tries to replicate the research and they get a totally different outcome? In science it happens all of the time; and until there is a whole body of research all pointing in the same direction please don't be swayed by one report.

I'm old enough to remember various times when the medical advice regarding pregnancy/ child-rearing has changed radically. When I had my first DC the advice was to wean at 3 months; with my second it was 4 months; now it's 6 months apparently. Do you remember all those people who did not take their DCs for MMR jabs due to a supposed link with autism, which was subsequently found to be completely faulty research? What about the recent complete about-turn on allergies?? We were all told when we were pregnant to avoid nuts so as to avoid allergies. Now it seems they think that was the wrong advice and people should just eat their normal diet!

The point I'm trying to make is that medical understanding changes all of the time. Unless you get a scan or diagnosis that shows there really is something wrong with your baby, chances are very, very high indeed that there isn't.

Please be honest with your DH about how low you are feeling. I do hope you get some RL help urgently. I'm sure you won't always feel the same way as you do now.

The simple answer is we can do nothing.

Reassuring can cause harm, contributing to the cycle.

There is no way anyone here can provide ANY evidence that will make a difference, because it's fighting the wrong battle. If 1,000,000 people came on to reassure Sleepless, and one person said something neutral, Sleepless's OCD would search out a way to pervert the neutral comment into a catastrophe.

It is just the nature of the illness. We don't think we can talk round physical illness, but we think because mental illness is communicated in words, we can find a way to talk around it. The "Good Will Hunting" moment, where Sleepless has a good old cry and that's the end of that. Life isn't that simple, and mental illness certainly isn't that simple.

There is a reason that people have to train for a long time and individually assess people suffering from these illnesses, ideally in a team.

Sleepless, I know where you are. I've been there too. It can get better - and I hope you get the right treatment to make it better for you. It's very treatable, but you have to take the hard medicine. That means that you DO NOT RESEARCH (feed the compulsion) or SEEK REASSURANCE (feed the compulsion) and you DO ENGAGE WITH REAL LIFE HEALTH PROFESSIONALS and do what they tell you to do, even if your OCD tells you it's unsafe. That much is your choice.

And if it isn't feasible to do these things, if you can't make the choice, you need to be an inpatient right now.

Dear all, had a long but I hope productive day. The doctor I saw was very frustrated with my fears as he'd allayed them already and said needed help, same as all of you, he has referred me to a pregnancy anxiety specialist who I will see along with my therapist who herself has got contact details for me of a Cbt specialist. So, will be getting 3x support a week, will break bank but will sell car if need to, need to get head under control. This evening, though not anxiety free I feel much much more in control. First thing in morning cancelling termination, again, and registering with new gp. Told head everything and got the day off. 3luckystars think checking in sounds amazing, truly, and if comes to it will definitely sell car to go to priory for a week!!!!!i am so sorry about your miscarriage. Hippymama, diplodocus and everyone, thank you so so much for all your support, going to stick with this, thank you thank you thank you.

R u based outside the UK? Can't believe you need to pay for counselling! X

Sleepless, thank god for that.

Now a note of caution: you know you said the anxieties are worse in the morning? Be prepared for that. Maybe even write yourself a note to say 'I know the anxieties will be worst in the morning...' and leave it by your bed.

Getting through OCD is really fucking hard work. Get as much sleep as you can and tackle it a teeny bit at a time.

And yes, Rosey, you have to pay to get counselling quickly. We paid hundreds last year for (near-suicidal) DS to access help, before the NHS swung into action. Worth every penny.

I spent 4 months in the Priory with PND - it was honestly worth every single penny.

I've also had NHS hospital stay and it really isn't as bad as you may be imagining. A friend was in an NHS mother and baby ward and she said it saved both their lives.

I doubt I can add anything of help but do feel free to PM if you just want to chat about hospital experience.

Sorry was meant to say duplodon not diplodocus....tired typing :). Thank you all, just so so king and helpful xxx

Sleepless I am so pleased that things are feeling a little more peaceful for you this evening, even after such a long day. Well done you for powering through and fighting back even though you were feeling exhausted by everything.

As Duplodon says It's very treatable, but you have to take the hard medicine. That means that you DO NOT RESEARCH (feed the compulsion) or SEEK REASSURANCE (feed the compulsion) and you DO ENGAGE WITH REAL LIFE HEALTH PROFESSIONALS and do what they tell you to do, even if your OCD tells you it's unsafe. That much is your choice.

Please try to have this at the front of your mind in the days to come if you start to feel the intrusive thoughts again.

Please also remember how you feel now, more in control and how you felt prior to this panic episode where you were feeling much more relaxed and positive about the future. Focussing on the fact that you have felt more relaxed and calm like this and have come back to these positive places from feeling so anxious will help you remember that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Well done for speaking out at work too - I am sure they will be understanding and supportive and that will make everything easier for you too.

You can beat this and you can and will continue to fight for your health and for your marriage and family and baby.

We are all here for you lovey and once again I am so pleased for you that you are feeling better this evening. Keep well and remember to keep asking for help and support whenever you need it. x