Can't bear this anymore, is termination at 15 16 weeks just going to make it all worse?

[Sleeplessinnorthlondon]

I'm going to delete my profile soon as so ashamed of all of what's happened but desperate for any advice anyone can offer. In summary, conceived when thought couldn't, just about to start ivf, and didn't know. Had two different due dates from different scans but looks like could have drunk heavily 16, 17 and 18 dpo. Stopped as soon as found out but can't shake the guilt despite doctors all telling me it would probably be fine. Would never have terminated for downs or any condition the child was going to have anyway, but cannot bear idea of having spoilt life chances of child that would have been healthy through stupidity. Tried counselling, midwife, friends, all been so kind but can't shake terror and guilt and suspect will never shift and will be terrible mother when born as so anxious and guilty. Just can't bear any of this any more, none of the help I've tried to access is working and Marie stopes have said they can organise an abortion this week. Will mean hurting friends, family and above all darling darling husband but he has said will support me if it's the only way forward. So so desolate and terrified, everyone around me saying this is mental health issue not physical and probably right but in no state to bring child into the world like this anyway. Has anyone been in the same boat? Did the termination help or make it worse? Please help me.

Your blood supply is never shared with the baby. The placenta acts as a 'sorting station', transferring oxygen and nutrients to the baby from your blood supply. Some drugs and alcohol will cross through the placenta, but not all.

At the stage you're talking about there wasn't even a placenta. You have not put your baby at risk. Not one bit.

I did everything right. Teetotal, no drugs, no soft cheeses, no pate, no rare steaks (bitter, much? ). I read the books, slept on my left side to maximise blood flow to the baby, the works. She has SN, a brain disorder, and goes to special school.

You don't get to control foetal development. Nobody can reassure you that your baby will be just fine, because any baby can have issues. But to terminate a baby because you may have caused it done damage is beyond unreasonable.

Having a baby is not about you. Stop focusing on you and your role in the development of this baby and start focusing on your baby itself.

Sleepless you are considering terminating a much loved and longed for baby because of a suspicion from a man who isn't a medical doctor, who knows nothing about you, your baby or your mental health and who has conducted extremely limited research on macaques. Not human beings - macaques.

You need more help and more frequent support from your mental health team and you need to ask for it and get it today.

You need to take your last posts with you and explain that your are now contemplating hurting yourself and feel the world would be better without you in it. You need help and support as duplodon has said.

The problem is your mental health.

There is nothing wrong with your baby.

You have come do far sleepless, don't stop fighting now... You are fighting for yourself, your family, your friends, your husband and your baby and you are doing so well. This is a bump in the road - nothing more.

Also sleepless, just to reiterate from one of my previous posts... I felt exactly like you a few weeks ago - just as desperate and low and anxious - couldn't sleep, crying all the time - couldn't cope with anxiety and panic constantly.

I felt that my baby would be better off not bring concieved / born at all than to have me as a mother. I was convinced I was a terrible person and would ruin his life forever.

I felt selfish for marrying my wonderful husband and for staying married to him as I felt I was so awful and he deserved a better and more normal person than me.

Now, a couple of months on and with the right treatment I feel completely different and am excited waiting for the imminent arrival of my lovely baby to start my family with my lovely husband.

Things will and can get better. Don't give up on yourself and your family. You can do this. X

The gestation periods of humans and monkeys are totally different.

Why are you still saying day you drank at the "worst" time?

Day 19 for monkeys means much later on for humans.

Stop ignoring this fact!

The biggest risk to yor baby is your anxiety NOT alcohol.

The alcohol will not have harmed your baby.

The anxiety on the pther hand is trying to make you terminate your baby.

You must fight it!

Otherwise the anxiety will never leave. If you have a termination it will likely be a millstone round your neck. Please don't do that to yourself.

You must be close to 20 weeks now, OP.

Apologies if this is not the case where you are, but here in Aus we have a 20 week scan to detect abnormalities (I believe this includes facial).

Could you at least wait until then before making a decision? You would then be making a decision based on a reality that you have seen evidence of, rather than an assumption. If you terminate now, you could be killing a perfectly healthy, wanted baby.

If your health system is different, you could maybe request a private scan?

I'm just concerned that you're not listening to the many rational posts on this thread, or the opinions of the majority of the health professionals you've consulted. Perhaps you wouldn't believe a scan either - but isn't it worth a try, on the chance that it may reassure you everything is fine?

Are you having weekly face to face therapy?
Did you get a referral to a perinatal mh specialist - were you seen by a specialist?

It may be that you need more.

Are you taking medication? CBT without medication can be very hard when you have significant anxiety.

To the poster who had mega anxiety and can't understand Sleepless's process (sorry I can't remember your handle), it may just be that Sleepless is experiencing more severe clinical anxiety than you have experienced. Also, OCD is a funny old thing, being on a bit of a spectrum. When it's particularly severe it can be a much more serious sort of mental health illness than "regular" anxiety, overlapping with some of the more serious mental health disorders in how it presents. The line between reality and the thoughts can become blurred. This is not a choice, it's a symptom.

If you are thinking of hurting yourself Sleepless, please seek immediate help.

InfiniteJest, I think the problem with how Sleepless is experiencing this is that she's in a loop. The more she is reassured, the more severe the anxiety becomes. So reassurance is sort of contraindicated. This is obviously pretty hard in pregnancy, where actually there is a normal healthy need for reassurance too.

The rule is: ask once, asking ONE credible trusted speaker. Then stop asking. Stop researching. Don't google. Use other means to tolerate your distress.

And just to reiterate - this is an ILLNESS. It is not a choice.

So telling someone:

• to count themselves lucky
• that other people are less lucky
• that they're being irrational
• that there is no evidentiary basis for their beliefs

OR

• reassuring them about the content of their thoughts (this is irrational because...)
• disputing the anxiety
• challenging the belief

is unlikely to work outside of proper, planned psychiatric treatment.

This is a significant mental health concern. No amount of anecdotes, from people who get it, don't get it, say the right thing, say the wrong thing can ever be a substitute for proper, comprehensive specialist perinatal psychiatric support.

Often people with OCD frustrate people on online fora quite a lot because posts are usually articulate and with a good amount of rational thought, but then this repeating cyclical irrationality that seems - on the outside - such a no-brainer to deal with.

That's the nature of it. That's why professional support is so important.

Sleepless, please print off the thread and take it to ANY health professional you trust. If you can manage that, that would be great.

I just want to reiterate that, based on sleepless last post suggesting she thinks the world would be better without her, and the link I provided on the previous page, I believe she does not have OCD but is depressed and needs emergency help ASAP to prevent harm to herself and baby.

I won't kill myself, sorry for giving that impression, want it all to end but not got any idea how I'd ever go about that and don't think I could. The professor from Canada who wrote the papers is the one who told me I drank at the worst time, he is the North American expert of FASD so I find it hard to ignore his email. Going to really, really try today but if can't then have to go down termination route this time. It's my best friend's wedding on Friday, making a speech as she did at mine 2 months after her father died in a car accident so no way can pull out of that. Got appt booked on Monday for termination and if can't get help I need today will put all my resources into being strong for wedding, then Sunday prepare self for Monday.

No matter what you do, you need to continue to get mental health treatment. Your body and your choice regarding the termination, but you are clearly ill and need help whether you have a baby or not. This entire thread reads like a cry for help.

sleepless You find it hard to ignore his email but so easy to ignore face to face expert advice from the FMU, advice from doctors, midwives, psychologists, experts and mumsnetters who have been in your exact same position?

He is one man - not even a doctor - who does experiments on monkeys. Who says he is the expert? The reason you are finding it hard to ignore is because he has said something that triggers an intrusive thought and you are now back in the OCD cycle of trying to seek reassurance and gain certainty one way or another.

I know that at the moment there are thoughts racing through your head and that things are happening too fast and it all feels uncontrollable but this will feel better when you have spoken to your psychologist. Things were feeling much better for you for a while and they can and will go back to being better.

I am all for a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body so please don't mistake me for a pro-lifer, just please, please, please, please, please don't make any decisions regarding the future of your pregnancy while you are so unwell. Terminating a longed for and healthy pregnancy will only make your mental health worse and for a substantially longer time. You need proper, comprehensive specialist perinatal psychiatric support as Duplodon has said above.

We are all here for you Sleepless - you can beat this and have an enjoyable and healthy rest of your pregnancy and healthy baby. x

Did you tell this professor that you are planning to terminate your baby based mainly on your reading of his paper?

If so, and he still came back with 'confirmation' that his experiments on monkeys are directly relatable to humans then I'm amazed.

If you are going to take his word as gospel, then maybe ask him what he would advise his daughter/wife/friend in your situation.

I'm another who conceived DS1 during the Xmas/New Year period - much, much alcohol was consumed and over a longer period than in your case. He is considerably brighter/more academic/sociable than DS2 who was planned rigorously and so was exposed to none of those risk factors.

Sleepless I really think a termination will not help, will make things worse for you in the longer term.
It really sounds like you have a MH issue. You need to go back to the GP, the MWs, anyone and demand help - get someone to go with you. Maybe even show them your posts on this thread.
I had a termination after a brief relationship when I was about 20. Different to you I really didn't think about it much - it was a panic thing. I had a 'problem' and I had to deal with it asap. I only told two close friends - because I needed someone to pick me up from the hospital- no-one else, my family still don't know. I have NC for this.
Looking back at the time it was most likely the right decision for me but my head wasn't in the right place to make that decision. And I know that now.
I think the counselling before was a box ticking exercise -I said something to the Dr at the time that in retrospect should have sent alarm bells ringing but they still signed the form.
Admittedly made worse by complications (at one point I experienced something like diarrhoea but it was big blood clots - I remember realising my own mortality, realising I could die). I also remember sitting in an ambulance telling the drivers it was God punishing me for what I'd done. (and I wasn't religious or brought up religiously etc).
I had other problems later (not related) and ended up suicidal. My termination was one of the things that got me to that point.
I've since had two other DCs many years later and I have health problems that mean pregnancy is risky anyway and through both I was convinced something would go wrong. I had an amino for one (20 yrs later) and I thought if I lost the baby I would deserve it - a deserving punishment for my termination. Rationally I know that really isn't true - but I can't help it.
Sorry that rambled a bit - but I know my biggest problem is guilt. Not guilt for the procedure as much as guilt for not doing it for the right reasons, not being 100% certain that it was right thing to do. What if?

You could very likely start thinking 'what if' What if I was wrong and the baby was perfect? Reading stuff that makes you think that the baby was most likely fine (as I am and most HPs think). Even if it isn't (and I really don't think that) you are going to love it and care for it -and that's the most important thing in the world.

You really need to sort your head out first, before you do something you can't change. And you need help with that.

This thread breaks my heart, I'm so sorry that you are going through this OP.

I'm not a mental health expert so won't try to offer advice but you and your baby are in my thoughts and I hope you both get through this

i really have tried to get help. GP put me on online CBT course whch made things worse, paying 70 quid a week for therapy which is soothing to a point but not really making me feel better, seen the mental health midwife, the psychiatrist, the GP, a counsellor. I've exhausted my friends, my family, my husband. Two of my best friends are due either side of me by a couple of weeks and know spoiling what should be the happiest of journeys for them. Been bearable, even getting better for a while but now struggling to sleep, maybe got 3 hrs last night, and completely lost appetite too. Whole thing feels like carrying a time bomb and just want it all to stop.

Sleepless I'm not going to address your catastrophic thinking and intrusive thoughts about harming your baby, because those need to be addressed by your mental health team. However, I am going to STRONGLY suggest that you contact them immediately about your current feelings and what you are doing with looking up this study and so on. I think they can help you much more than us, or that professor, because I don't think this is an issue about your baby's health but one about your mental health.
I also just thought I'd tell you that I felt EXACTLY the same way after my first CBT session or two, when we were focusing on identifying those catastrophic thoughts and the thought processes that led to them. BUT IT GOT BETTER. after we had done that we did so much work on challenging them, and I still use those techniques now. it will get better, and you are not alone in feeling that way right now.

Ring your emergency contact number for your mental health team when you have those feelings. They can help, and Google will make it worse when your mind gets stuck in those loops.

Sleepless, I will be brutal here.

Think of two people (yes one isn't a person yet) You. Baby.

One of these people is unwell. You.

One of these is NOT unwell. Baby.

The former needs help, treatment and for the long term.

Taking the baby out of the picture will not treat you. It will not.

Sleepless go back to your GP / mental health midwife / psychiatrist / counsellor and get some more face to face support.

Online CBT is probably not what you need right now as you probably need the support of another person to help you pick the process apart.

Struggling to sleep, loss of appetite etc are a result of this panic period you are experiencing. It will pass.

Get some help today. You need to contact the emergency contact number for your mental health team as suggested by Siani above.

Don't give in to this Sleepless you are stronger than this. x

Also, yeah, online CBT is not going to cut it for this. It would not have been enough for me, either. I quite literally needed a sensible woman saying "do you really believe, when you examine all the evidence, that this catastrophic outcome is most likely?" to be able to give myself permission to stop focusing on worst cases. You need face to face. You say you are paying a therapist - pay one who does CBT.

Op, either you are not getting the correct help or you have not been completely honest with your doctor. The help offered to you is not adequate and doesn't match the severity of the problem.

If you feel you have no alternative, you really are 100% positive that termination is correct for you then I accept that. However, if you have any doubt whatsoever I can't urge you strongly enough to go back to your Dr and demand help. Tell them absolutely everything and most importantly that what they've done this far is not working.

Having a termination WILL NOT MAKE IT STOP!

It could make these feelings of guilt last a very, very long time indeed.

You have not exhausted all options.

For a start, go back to GP and say online CBT not working, you need face to face.

Promised, been honest every step of the way the last few weeks, did probably underplay it at start which I now bitterly regret. No longer have GP as moved away and not registered with new one but been super honest with midwife today, GP in last couple of weeks before tried to register as out of catchment patient and was removed from list, therapist, everyone. Giving today a really good go, appt in an hr and therapy again this evening.