Can't bear this anymore, is termination at 15 16 weeks just going to make it all worse?

[Sleeplessinnorthlondon]

I'm going to delete my profile soon as so ashamed of all of what's happened but desperate for any advice anyone can offer. In summary, conceived when thought couldn't, just about to start ivf, and didn't know. Had two different due dates from different scans but looks like could have drunk heavily 16, 17 and 18 dpo. Stopped as soon as found out but can't shake the guilt despite doctors all telling me it would probably be fine. Would never have terminated for downs or any condition the child was going to have anyway, but cannot bear idea of having spoilt life chances of child that would have been healthy through stupidity. Tried counselling, midwife, friends, all been so kind but can't shake terror and guilt and suspect will never shift and will be terrible mother when born as so anxious and guilty. Just can't bear any of this any more, none of the help I've tried to access is working and Marie stopes have said they can organise an abortion this week. Will mean hurting friends, family and above all darling darling husband but he has said will support me if it's the only way forward. So so desolate and terrified, everyone around me saying this is mental health issue not physical and probably right but in no state to bring child into the world like this anyway. Has anyone been in the same boat? Did the termination help or make it worse? Please help me.

Can you have a 4D scan to put your mind at ease. They can properly see the face in those?

Sleepless you have been doing so well brave lady.

You really, really need to step away from the internet and from research.

The gestation period for a macaque is in the region of more than a third shorter than a human one, I think - so day 19 would presumably reflect a different stage of development.

You cannot read so literally from the well-supported findings of this study to your own situation, being neither macaque nor in receipt of the previous ethanol dosing at those levels involved in this study. This study gets wide reference, but with specific reference to the circumstances of the findings - not with the implication that the findings are so literally transferable to humans, unless I've missed something.

Have a chat with those professionals and your friends and family; and step away from the research.

You can do this

Really, just stop it. we were not trying TTC and we had been away and had quite a bit to drink throughout the 7-8 weeks I was pregnant before I even knew. We had been to a wedding been away for a week, SIL birthday weekend, two weeks holiday from work where we had chilled out at home the week we weren't away. DH is not a drinker and I had gone a bit mad for me- most of a bottle of wine or champagne several times. At the wedding, over a day I drank easily 1-1 1/2 bottles of champagne - bang on 3-4 weeks. DS is absolutely fine. He is beautiful.
The silly thing is I am not a big drinker - usually a glass or two would be my limit and I can go months without even thinking of it.
Please stop worrying.
My cousin's wife is an alcoholic who drinks a bottle of vodka plus every day and has done since she was a teenager although no one knew until she was about 30. She had their son when she was mid-20s. He is perfect. She drank heavily throughout the pregnancy, every day.
My mum was in her 40s and 6 months pregnant when she found out she was pregnant. She smoked 20 a day and enjoyed a few drinks about 3 nights a week. Nothing wrong with me.
Please stop worrying.

I didn't find out I was pregnant with my DS until I was about 6 weeks pregnant, and had drunk very heavily for the majority of that time - a bottle of wine a night, and then a very boozy trip abroad with daytime drinking, followed by wine with dinner and further boozing in the evening. We then attended a booze fuelled wedding. So in summary, I had at least 10 units of alcohol pretty much every night (shocking to think of it now!) for those first 6 weeks (just to clarify - I had no intention of being pregnant - had just had a miscarriage, and was on reflection drinking to deal with it - this pregnancy was a complete shock). If I remember rightly, the placenta does not start to function until around week 7 ( Hence high number of mc at around the 6 week mark as any placental abnormality means the embryo fails to thrive). You will not have harmed this baby!
DS was born completely normal (and believe me I have watched him like a hawk as I felt so guilty about all the booze in his very first weeks of existence). He is now 9 and is excelling academically, achieving level 4b in his recent tests, so exceeding expected levels and is the kindest,most emotionally mature boy.
I also have a friend, who like you was desperate for a baby but because of circumstances with her partner , it wouldn't have happened. She ended up leaving him, falling pregnant and was hit with the most awful ante-natal anxiety and depression, and expressing a lot of the same concerns and anxieties as you. Had planned a termination, but didn't go through with it, and then planned for adoption. Once she had the baby it all resolved and she is now the most amazing mum with the most gorgeous, sunniest natured child, who is the centre of her world.
Keep going with your CBT and keep posting. You will get through this x

Nothing in pregnancy is guaranteed. There is a chance for everyone that something can go wrong in a pregnancy or delivery and that child can be born with problems.

I was perfect during my very planned pregnancy after 6 years of infertility. No alcohol, organic healthy food only and guess what??? My daughter has a severe speech disorder and is classed as having special needs. Life has been harder for her and us because of it but she still has a very happy life and we will always love her and fight for her. She makes the world a better place just by being in it.

So please try to stop torturing yourself, carry on getting some help and I promise you that things will be ok

Good morning sleepless
I had a look at some of the work by prof sterling. I have to say the extremely cruel way he and his research team treated the monkeys does make one question his own morality and ethics. It is a wonder any of the monkeys produced 'normal' offspring under those conditions.
I also question the morality of him suggesting his animal studies can be directly related to humans when there is no evidence to confirm this. It seems that he has not considered the unnecessary anxiety publishing this work on the internet has had on women finding themselves unexpectedly pregnant.

Thank you all so much for your support. Emailed the professor directly (really losing the plot now) and he actually emailed back largely reassuring email but did confirm increased risk of brain damage. I teach students with speech disorders and other processing issues and would love any child that had such a challenge just cannot live with myself if I think I have caused it. Taking his email to fetal medicine centre to see what they say, in all honesty though really do think now am going to have to terminate, whether or not this is all a mental health issue and right now it doesn't feel like one I cannot carry on for the next few months like this at all unless the doctors today can reassure me. Feel so ashamed and such a failure, wish could relax and be normal person but just feels impossible.

Sleepless, you were about to start fertility treatment and you got really lucky. I hope you find a way to continue this pregnancy as I think you will torture yourself equally if you terminate.

Probably right. At this point really starting to feel world would be better if wasnt in it, causing husband, friends and family so much pain only reason think have to continue is to spare them but thought of doing so just terrifies me and don't think I can. Wish had been brave enough to terminate at start, professor has now confirmed all my fears that drank at worst point possible, risk of harm heightened and for all the lovely honest people here confirming they did the same thing keep thinking I won't be so lucky and will have to explain to child they're not finding life harder as god intended but because they drew the short straw when they got a mother. Beyond desolate. I'm sorry, this is self indulgent now, just desperate to talk to someone, anyone I'm not married or related to or friends with as being so selfish with them already. Wish none of this had ever happened.

How many weeks are you now sleepless? I wish there was something someone could say to help. What about doing for a really detailed private scan? Do you think it could help.

A lot of the phrases you use are shouting out that you are in the midst of a major depression. I strongly advise that you ask your gp or midwife for urgent help. It is so hard to see yourself objectively when you are in the depths of depression, but it can and will pass with treatment, whether that's cbt or antidepressants or both.

I also suggest you look up catastrophic thinking, you sound a very intelligent woman who is 'overthinking' for lack of a better word.

Only you can decide what to do, but taking a short time to address your depression/anxiety could help youmake the right decision for you.

Have you had your psych evaluation?

The problem is not the macaques. It's your anxiety about the macaques.

There is no point in anyone here reassuring or disputing these thoughts, it just makes the content seem like the problem when the anxiety is the problem.

You need psychiatric help. The most important thing you can do to help you and your baby is to stop googling (it is a compulsion), stop reassurance seeking (it is a compulsion) and get urgent psychiatric help.

Good luck.

And with the best will in the world, no one can ask Sleepless to stop worrying. You can't just stop worrying when in the grip of an anxiety disorder or depression. You can make a choice to divert available energy into getting appropriate treatment instead of engaging in compulsions though. Even if you engage in compulsions AND arrange psychiatric help it would be better.

You need to explain everything to your midwife. If you aren't fully honest then you terminate, all of your fears and thoughts will continue to haunt and punish you, plus guilt and never knowing what might have happened. I advice you to speak at length to a counsellor/midwife/GP and be completely honest, you have to unload all these thoughts to someone in RL.

you sound riddled with anxiety and intrusive thoughts. It is a mental health issue and you can get better.

Saw the psych who was lovely and agreed cbt online and weekly therapy. CBT has inadvertently made things worse as the questionnaire / worksheet I had to completely made me conceptualise worst case scenario and found it hard to come back from that. Therapy helpful to point, looking at source of anxiety but just want to have mind shut off, maybe be sectioned. they ruled out meds, sensibly I think as would lead me to fear more that was harming child and linked to other problems. Going to really, really try to take support from therapist and doctors today but can't honestly see things getting better.

Op, I've only read a few of your posts, it's to close to home for me to read them all but this morning decided to check in on the last page.
How I wish I could wave a magic wand and make all this anxiety and obsession go away for you.
I know you're very fragile now but I'm going to say it any way. You're ill. You need the best psychological help you can get. Pour your energy into getting help for this. If you can say hand on heart you've spent as much time focussing on your mental state and wellbeing as you have on researching potential outcomes of your pregnancy, then please ignore me.
You believe you're making the best informed decision you can make, while everyone around you is saying you're not. No doctor in the world will say it's 100% guaranteed that no damage has been done - you're seeking the impossible. With pregnancy, birth and raising children absolutely nothing is guaranteed.
You're entitled to terminate for what ever reason you choose, but make sure that you are of sound mind and doing it for the right reasons for you. Please pour your energy into understanding your anxiety, fears and obsession with research. i think if you do this only then will you be at peace with your decision either way, in the immediate and long term future.

I don't understand

I have been following this thread from the beginning and as someone who has suffered and does suffer from mega anxiety I do understand your rational thoughts but I don't understand why you won't give your baby the chance. I found out I was pregnant after a heavy night drinking and I am now 36 weeks and baby is (touch wood) fine. I know that won't help you because everyone else has said something similar but this needs to stop. I think you need some tough love and emotional support and please see a cbt counsellor.

I don't think any medical professional in terms of the babies development and reassuring you about that will help you because your finding oher things to contradict what people are telling you. Like others have said this is nothing to do with your baby this is ALL a mental health issue and when bad thoughts creep in you need someone to go to. Cbt might help you gain skills to cope.

I'm sorry I sound harsh but there are people in this world that would kill for a baby and to be pregnant and you were probably one of them before you got pregnant so it's time to forgive yourself and know that our bodies are amazing things and yours is doing an amazing job of growing a baby that will quite clearly be loved

Please Sleepless do take duplondon's advice and speak to your professional support team.

If you weren't worrying about this, it seems like it might be something else. No one can give you absolute reassurance on many of the risk factors for a developing fetus.

Sorry didn't see you had cbt already

I almost want to say that you need to give up the Internet in its entirety to avoid the risks of making yourself ill. You must stop looking on the Internet. You must keep getting help. You must focus on people's positive stories - most of which will be anecdotal (but true!) because it would be so hard to write an academic paper looking back at people's behaviours and pregnancy.
Why don't you print out the positive stories in this thread and then turn off your computer for a few weeks.
I was on a long holiday and was drinking a lot, came home and was pregnant. My son is honestly a bright, funny, beautiful, healthy boy. He is 3 and is just sat doing a 70 piece jigsaw puzzle while I neck coffee and write this to you.
Take each day as it comes and good luck to you

Hi sleepless.

I was listening to a radio program from NPR - US National Public Radio - and thought of you. The guest was a doctor who specializes in depression and he told a very sad story of a pregnant woman who went without her medication during pregnancy and ended up taking her life at 6 months. She had constant concerns about the baby's health that could not be addressed despite speaking to numerous experts. I really think you are suffering from pregnancy-related depression - which the doctor described as a silent epidemic - and you need to seek immediate help for this condition.

The woman in this case was a teacher of children with behavioral problems.

Here is a link to the radio program - please read and/or listen to it.
www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/06/04/411978777/pregnant-women-with-depression-face-tough-choices-no-easy-answers

And details of the woman in the linked New York Times article:

"At the beginning of spring in 2013, Mary Guest, a lively, accomplished 37-year-old woman, fell in love, became pregnant and married after a short courtship. At the time, Mary taught children with behavioral problems in Portland, Ore. Her supervisor said that he had rarely seen a teacher with Mary’s gift for intuiting students’ needs. “Mary was a powerful person,” he wrote to her mother, Kristin. “Around Mary, one felt compassion, drive, calmness and support.”

[...]

As the months went on, she became gripped by the idea that something was wrong with the fetus, despite genetic testing and multiple ultrasounds that showed it was healthy and strong. Some nights, she spent hours online, poring over descriptions of everything that could go wrong. “We could see her spiraling downward,” Kristin said. “The really irrational obsession, the inability to see otherwise, tormented her. Her doctor tried to reassure her. But that was being rational, and rational wasn’t where she was.” One autumn day, Mary told Kristin: “I just can’t imagine being a mother.”

Op, just a quick google search will tell you how little perinatal ocd is understood and frequently mis-diagnosed.
When I was dealing with this I was in a foreign country and there was a language barrier too. You say you're seeing your psych once a week. I was seeing mine 3 times a week. Honestly, if I didn't have that holding hand support every second day from a professional I can't say what the outcome would have been. If you are not getting the help you need to overcome this you need to keep looking. As I'll as I was, I never gave up fighting for my mental health (I come from a home where a parent had severe mental health issues - who'd havd thought there could be a positive side to witnessing that?). The thing is my husband and I paid privately for psych and so had choices in my care.
Take a look at this. This is the kind of professional you should be seeking out:
www.nightingalehospital.co.uk/specialist/dr-michael-craig/

Urghhhh a couple of errors in my previous post (I'm on my phone) but I hope it makes sense

Sleepless, I feel for you, I really do. But you're torturing yourself. You're being completely irrational about the scale of the 'problem' of your drinking. You think you won't 'be so lucky' as the other people who drank (and some just as heavily as you) at the start of their pregnancies and had perfect babies.

Let me tell you about someone who wasn't lucky at all. My sister. She didn't drink (her baby was conceived in a Muslim country) at the start of her pregnancy. She gave up caffeine, cheeses and all the stuff pregnant women should not have. She was a 'perfect' expectant mother. Perfect. Except at 32 weeks her baby died. She had done everything right, and yet her baby still died.

Let me tell you about the wife of my husband's friend (I can't call her a friend for obvious reasons), she drank heavily throughout both her pregnancies. She took magic mushrooms during one of them. She smoked cigarettes and cannabis. Now she has two healthy and well-well-adjusted children.

What did my sister do to deserve her fate? Why was the other woman so lucky? Who knows? But at the end of the day, what will be will be.

You want your child. You just don't want any problems it has to be your fault. But, they won't be your fault! You didn't know you were pregnant, so if (and I think your baby is fine) your baby has alcohol related problems then it is still not your fault.

Get the psych help you need, bang down doors and don't give up.

Stop thinking a termination will be the answer, it won't. It would give you more guilt and pain.

Pregnancy and motherhood is full of anxieties and worries, but all you can ever do is try your best.

Stop looking online for answers and start speaking to professionals in real life. I wish you well. Xxx

I think you need to give this baby a chance before you go ahead and terminate.a very detailed scan would pick up serious brain abnormalities.
Brain scans are used in suspected cases of fas.
If all appears normal you must accept that nothing catastrophic has happened to the brain of your child.
Would you be able to put the profs email up on here for us to go through with you. You did say it was largely reassuring?