shock at the drinking in pregnancy thread

[alle01]

i have been reading for the last couple of days, and posted a couple of times in this thread. i found shocking that people encourage pregnant women to drink, based on the evidence that they did and nothing happened to them, and there is no research that probes this is a risky behaviour.
well, there isn't research because it would be unethical to do research that may put at risk unborn children, but there is plenty of research that probes that alcohol is damaging in adults, and children cannot really process it until at least 17/18 yo, plenty of cases of alcohol poisoning in young adolescents as well, it is also known that the placenta does not filter alcohol, among other substances.
i would like to know what kind of benefit it is suppose to bring to the pregnancy and baby, that is so worth it, and what the difference is with people that say they smoke because the anxiety of no smoking is more damaging to the baby than the nicotine itself, or any other drug, cocaine maybe...
what is the choice, do what you can to ensure you have a healthy baby, or indulge yourself for five minutes?

Iona - the difference is no one is saying "well, I drank in pregnancy (and am therefore a better person) so why don't you?" whereas people like Poppet are saying "I gave up alcohol in pregnancy (unlike you child abusers) so why don't you?".

Your personal choice to drink or not drink is yours alone, so there's no need to judge those who choose differently.

Good news on the Soleros eh I too had a big Starbucks coffee while preggers and felt awful, all fluttery and crap. Although mine was a white chocolate mocha so it could have been a sugar rush. I got a similar one when I ate a whole sticky toffee pudding... for four people. Oh and as for the alcohol I found out about my pregnancy the day after a huge bender charming get-together with friends in the Whiskey Experience, afterwhich we had a meal with wine and rather a few pints in the pub as chasers. Hence I decided my bean had drunk enough during the pregnancy.
And Ladybiscuit I have read the links awaits pat on back but I remember being told the findings had been linked to the fact that more middle class, university educated women are likely to moderately drink than other groups - hence the better outcomes? I did notice this line of interest: 'FASD not a diagnosis, but a ?diffuse? set of problems caused not by alcoholism, but by ?any and all drinking in pregnancy? (Armstrong 1998).' Which rather precludes the idea of an absolute safe dose of alcohol?

So the fact that the NICE committee admit there is no evidence that low to moderate drinking harms foetuses you're still convinced it does?

"but for the women who's persaonal choice not to drink are the ones all being personnaly abused."

err where? where have people said

" i think that mothers that dont drink in pregnancy are selfish cows"

NOWHERE!!!!! i have not seen any teetpotalmums being abused.

please show me exactly where and I will eat my words (washed down with a small pinot grigio)

LADY i cant find your link ?

They were very subtle links porca and I struggled to find them too! They are in a post on Wed 14-Jul-10 at 11:27:15

Porca - are you "teetpotal" at the moment?

porcamiseria, I find the comment 'but dont be so fucking self rightous about it' alone abusive

To completely change the subject, having just read the whole thread, I'm very alarmed to read that tonic water is a no-no when pregnant as grapefruit juice mixed with tonic water has been my tipple of choice whilst I've been abstaining (not always successfully ahem) from the wine! I can't win!

No Ladybiscuit... I'm not convinced at all that low to moderate drinking causes harm. But no evidence of harm is not the same as proving a substance is safe. And I am convinced that alcohol is a fetotoxin, so I chose to adopt a precautionary principle. As I said earlier, it is only 9 months and it is only a drink, it's not exactly vital to my wellbeing.
I do agree with the OP that while the general consensus on Mumsnet tends to offer advice above and beyond that which you tend to get from HVs about breastfeeding, weaning and active birth.... where it comes to alcohol women who choose to do something as neurotic as follow government guidelines are treated like holier than thou nuns. I can't imagine the herd calling pregnant women who chose not to smoke or take a few tabs of acid sanctimonious is all. It just seems so very middle class: 'but how can it be harmful darling, it's fairtrade, organic Chablis?'

OK maybe the usage of the word "fucking" was a tad agressive....

but I think "self rightous"

is not as bad as "selfish"

so nerr

but seriously, I dont find people that abstain neurotic, really I dont.

I just dont like it when they get on a high horse about it! and call people that dont, "selfish"

anyway its getting to that stage now when I think (again) I should step away as noone is listening to anyone now!

FASD is basically completely made up by foetus worshippers who hate women. It's a collection of various 'symptoms' (some of which are just difference, not 'damage, others of which could have any number of causes. Including stressed, guilt-tripped, neurotic mothers unable to let their DC relax.

I choose to sack off all alcohol completely when pg. Only cos I can't see the point of two units a week or whatever pissy amount is recommended. Couldn't care less if other people do or don't

oh god. give it a rest with the foetus worshipping, misogony speech.

our good friends are raising a child with FASD and you clearly have no idea what you're taking about.

you actually border on deluded.

SGB - anyone with experience of babies and children in care will be in no doubt about the existence of foetal alcohol syndrome.

Taking care of defenseless unborn babies hardly equates to worship.

OP just asked why - didn't DEMAND you all justify yourselves, just sounded intrigued.

You're going on about feeling judged - MN is one of the most judgey-panted forums I know. No worse to question why you drink during pregnancy as it is to question the mothers who give their children Fruit Shoots and Greggs' Sausage Rolls - but apparently it's ok to judge that!

Fetal alcohol syndrome appears to exist, Foetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder is made up bullshit.
Foetus worshippers are people who are only interested in the unborn (and in controlling women's behaviour) Foetus worshippers are never interested in campaigning for better funded maternity care, or ending child poverty, or stopping domestic violence - it's all about bullying pregnant women.

oh thanks professor. now that that's clear.....

When i was pregnant for the 1st time 10 years ago, i was very much a 'new' mum. I read everything and did exactly what i was told- in cluding no alcohol. Fast forward 10 years and i am pregnant for the 2nd time. My best friend as been pregnant in between and has had the occasional drink and i did not see anything wrong with that and felt more relaxed about maybe having one myself. However, now that i am pregnant again, i just can't touch alcohol. I can't justify it in my own mind. Even though i am still of the opinion that 1 glass a week wouldn't do any harm, i know that it will be crossing over to my baby (even if it is in tiny amounts) and i just can't do it. This seems slightly irrational to me as well- but there you go!

Heated debate going on here. I am not drinking alcohol but only because I am not a big drinker anyway so it is not a problem for me to abstain. However....I am still drinking lots of caffeine, eating sushi, exercising vigorously and doing a whole host of other things that I am not meant to be doing. I can understand women wanting to have the odd drink during pregnancy and it pisses me off when people say "It's only 9 months, just abstain." F*ck off. The 9 months is hard enough as it is but if I had to stop drinking diet coke or coffee or eating sushi I would shoot myself in the head.

I think excessive alcohol abuse during pregnancy cannot be good for the foetus but I don't think that is what is being advocated here. Just the odd drink - totally different thing.

Agree with SGB - the judgment by foetus worshippers is ridiculous. We are not walking incubators.

There seems to be a phrase which I've heard repeated several times. Paraphrased it is: 'surely you are able to give up fags / booze / soft cheese in order to have a healthy baby at the end of it?' It doesn't always work that way and it would be distressing for those who did everything 'right' to hear that.

That aside, I've had 3 dc. DD1 I only knew about 13 wks in after a heavy Xmas party time. I continued to drink in moderation (between 1-3 glasses per week). I continued to do so throughout both other pgs. FYI my glass is the old fashioned 125ml glass so really v moderate. I ate things I 'shouldn't' and other 'sins' too.

I'm not asking for anyone's approval or giving anyone advice. But I don't feel I deserve anyone's judgement either. If I had been drinking 3-4+ units per day then judge away. But using medical advice and common sense are not mutually exclusive. Risk is about reducing danger to acceptable levels. You cannot eliminate risk entirely. And what is acceptable to me may not be to you.

Agree buttonmoon78. It's all about what level of risk is acceptable to you. For me, a can of diet coke (or 2) and some cups of tea is acceptable to me. As is doing a work-out at the gym. Drugs, cigarettes or excessive alcohol are risks I would prefer not to take so choose not to. But it's all about choice. (note I said excessive alcohol here, not the occasional drink!).

Two rational posts in a row? And polite too? Must be a record...

I am so glad my pregnancy days are behind me.

BM78: I think that may be the nonmalevolent end of the 'how dare you be so selfish?' camp. With them it's like propitiation of a supernatural being - if you make the right sacrifices and vociferously condemn the unbelievers, the supernatural being will ensure that your baby is born perfect.

Sadly it doesn;t work that way. And another good reason for pointing out the bullshit that a lot of this 'don't have a life while PG' stuff is, is that many women do their best to obey all the instructions and stil have babies born with difficulties, brain damage, SN of various kinds - or pregnancies which don't end in a live birth. If the culture of blaming the mother for everything is allowed to grow unchecked, then the suffering of those who lose their babies or who have to come to terms with a damaged baby, is compounded quite unnecessarily.

That's exactly what I meant. We can use our intelligence to determine what is an acceptable risk for ourselves. But shit still happens and sometimes it's just totally indiscriminate. I mean, you can wear a cycle helmet and protective / high vis clothing but there is always the stuff which you can't control ie the nutter in the car.

I'm an adult therefore make a choice as to what is an acceptable risk for me and my family. I would not ridicule anyone who decides the only acceptable level of risk is none at all, but nor do I expect them to judge me or anyone else. Motherhood brings enough guilt as part of the package. Nobody needs another mum telling them they're being a bad parent. We already believe we're not good enough.

Funny thing tho - I drank through all pgs but as of last Sunday went teetotal! Doing great so far. And it's not forever, just til my holiday in France