shock at the drinking in pregnancy thread

[alle01]

i have been reading for the last couple of days, and posted a couple of times in this thread. i found shocking that people encourage pregnant women to drink, based on the evidence that they did and nothing happened to them, and there is no research that probes this is a risky behaviour.
well, there isn't research because it would be unethical to do research that may put at risk unborn children, but there is plenty of research that probes that alcohol is damaging in adults, and children cannot really process it until at least 17/18 yo, plenty of cases of alcohol poisoning in young adolescents as well, it is also known that the placenta does not filter alcohol, among other substances.
i would like to know what kind of benefit it is suppose to bring to the pregnancy and baby, that is so worth it, and what the difference is with people that say they smoke because the anxiety of no smoking is more damaging to the baby than the nicotine itself, or any other drug, cocaine maybe...
what is the choice, do what you can to ensure you have a healthy baby, or indulge yourself for five minutes?

I know you're free to start whichever threads you please, but why not express you shock on the other thread, and keep the debate giong there?

bibiitt, you do not need to insult any body, it might surprise you to know that people have different opinions to yours and that doesn't make them ignorant, i am not shocked at pregnant women drinking, which i knew they do, i've seen some, i've also seen teenagers in alcohol induced coma and didn't hear anybody encourage them to binge drink, but at the notion of people encouraging them. and i have never told anyone whether to drink of not, in case you are wondering.

I'll confess I haven't read the original thread. To me it was a no-brainer and I abstained totally (as I do now, while BFing). but it's not a big deal to me anyway, as I think wine, beer and most spirits are deeeeesgusting. So not missing much other than the occasional cocktail. DH doesn't really drink either (hates wine, allergic to beer) so no booze in the house anyway, and we're not going out types.

I think that a lot of the 'you can drink in moderation' is to keep communication open, perhaps? There seems to be the view that several people will not give up drinking even if they were told to. If you weren't supposed to drink at all, these people would keep quiet about their drinking, but this way they can be honest about it, if that makes any sense

one problem with the 'one glass is fine' thing, is that glasses can be massive!

I had a couple of glasses of wine a week while I was pregnant with DS, it helped me to relax and unwind. Stress is also cited as being 'bad' for the baby isn't it?

Lulabel - enjoy your G+T

stress was the reason of a friend of mine to not give up smoking while pregnant, wanted to be happy and not moody, she gave up after the birth though, baby caughing a lot apparently.

i have to say i didn't drink before any more than the one glass at xmas and significant ocassions, so not stress about drink for me.

While I think everybody has a choice and should obviously make their own decision, I also think that anybody who gives birth to a baby that has problems will sit and question whether they could have done something different that would have meant their baby was born healthy.

There are certain things we can't stop doing - travel being one of them. But there are also lots of things we can stop doing - drinking, smoking and eating brie being a few of them. Maybe you've never had listeria before, but what if this is the one time you get it? Maybe a couple of glasses of wine didn't cause a problem in your previous pregnancy but what if it does this time.

I speak from experience when I say that if I ever had another pregnancy (which really won't happen) I would not smoke, drink or eat any of the unrecommended foods. Avoiding a few things for a few months of your life is nothing if it means you get a healthy baby at the end.

Smoking and drinking in pregnancy are entirely different things. There is a lot of evidence to show that even passive smoking can be harmful to a developing baby.

I really hope you don't go around in RL with this attitude, people will have you down a sanctimonious busybody if you do.

My lovely dad is a consultant obs and gynae, and a pretty senior one at that (lucky me, so much pregnancy advice on tap!).

One of the first things he said to me (er, when i found out I was pregnant, that is!) was, don't worry too much about the drinking in pregnancy thing, it's bloody stressful enough being pregnant as it is, if having a glass of wine with your husband/friends helps you relax, go for it.

Happy relaxed mummy = happy relaxed baby.

Worried, panicking, over cautious mummy doesn't help anyone.

We must all do whatever feels right to us and not judge ANYONE for any other choices at what is a really emotionally fraught time.

agree cordiality, worried, panicking mommy is nooo good.
but in my case i would worry if i had alcohol, was a lot happier knowing that juice can do no harm, had the occasional coke though, i found caffeine a lot harder to give up than alcohol

By saying that you are "shocked" that people drink alcohol whilst pregnant you are being insulting alle01. Can't you see that? Is it ok for you to be insulting but not ok for me to be insulting? Is that it?

feedmenow but don't some of these things become nearly superstitions? We start to feel like we need to follow the "rules" in order to deserve healthy babies - when actually the chance of catching listeria from brie is pretty damn close to zero as far as I can work out. My BiL researched this and found a single case of a possibly listeria-affected pregnancy in the whole of Sweden in the last 30 years. Ie it's not dangerous. But the food authorities feel they have to warn us of theoretical risks, which get filtered down through eg Bounty mags as though they were serious risks, and by avoiding these substances we get an illusion of control and a sense that we are earning our babies.

bibiit i did not say i was shocked at people drinking, and i did not insult anybody, at least i did mean to, it is not ok for anybody to be insulting.

A midwife friend of mine said the odd glass of wine every couple of weeks wouldn't do any harm. She said the only reason you're told not to drink is because drinking in "moderation" varies hugely from one person to another.

Some people seem to think moderation, means they can knock back a bottle of wine every night.

I had the odd glass of wine on special occasions when pg. But stopped as was berated, looked down at. It did take the shine off a bit when I was celebrating my bday!

umf, interesting statcs, i wonder how many cases were in uk?

I wouldn't say I was shocked! but attitudes towards drinking and pregnancy are fascinating and frustrating across the board, IMO.

I think current NHS advice is confusing, and actually backfires in that it makes people less likely to follow it. It advises total abstinence - followed by advice to limit intake to 1-2 units, once or twice a week (so that's a max of 4 units, spread out, right?) - followed immediately by advice 'not to get drunk', and not to binge drink (which btw they define as more than SIX units in one go, not four). A lot of people are going to read into that what they want. Esp if they know the advice to abstain is based on a lack of evidence about the effects of low level drinking anyway.

I also think the 'we're all educated and can work it out for ourselves' angle is a bit optimistic, to say the least. Working out how many units are in various drinks is beyond a lot of people, pregnant or not. It's not their fault, the drinks industry have made it bloody hard. And frankly, on MN, where folk do like to pride themselves on their intelligence and education, it's been clear from a number of threads that lots of women don't actually know how much they are drinking (i.e. that standard middle class unit of consumption, the 'glass of wine', is more likely to be closer to 3 units than 1, given the strength of modern wine and the size of modern measures).

Personally, I dislike the pressure on pregnant women to drink nothing at all - I'm not aware of evidence that a VERY low intake is damaging, and if folk are genuinely concerned about pre-natal maternal and fetal health, than there are so many other issues that are more important.

However, I also dislike the weirdly macho 'if you're not necking a bottle of wine a night, you're a martyr/giving in to da man/letting the sisterhood down' stuff. Totally pointless posturing, and playgroundy one-up-manship ('had a margarita last night, baby not dead yet! Whoo hoo! ' etc.) If that's sensible informed adult choice, then I'm a banana.

nattynar, that's so sad, you should only feel special when preg, specially on your birthday.

but i agree it must be difficult to answer back and not feel bad if someone told you, but what a nerve to approach anybody you don't know and tell them what to do...

"8 units a week sound a lot to me, pregnant or not.
may i stress that i don't mean to stress any body about this, i just find it shocking, to me it is not worth the risk, but obviously it is for other people, just curious about their explanations and justifications".

Wasn't going to reply, but this has baffled me a little, why should someone have to justify or explain themselves to you?

nunnie, they don't have to, obviously, i am very curious and find fascinating people's explanations, that's all, i also have the bad habit of giving them my opinion, of which i expect them to take no notice whatsoever.

alle01 sadly don't know the UK listeria stats, if anyone even records them. But no reason they should be much different. My impression is that the level of anxiety caused by that particular advice is way out of proportion with the real risks (eg mn threads panicking because accidentally ate goats' cheese tart - which hot anyway...).

Advice which isn't accurate and informative undermines the important stuff. Pg women capable of understanding that binge drinking and heavy drinking definitely bad, low level drinking not shown to be bad but might possibly be.

If gvt serious about improving fetal and child health then focus should be on our pretty ghastly maternity services, not on worrying mothers.

I don't understand why it's so difficult to give up something you like for the sake of your unborn child.

You wouldn't feed your newborn alcohol, so why would you risk giving it to them in utero when everything that you consume goes straight to them? And surely erring on the side of caution is preferable?

Thanks alle01.

I was surprised at the number of people that looked down on drinking when pg. Especially when it's with a meal in pub/restaurant, and for all they know you've been nursing that drink the whole evening! Which I was.

Not that I'm condoning knocking back shots and getting drunk when pg.

umf agree, specially in postnatal care, you had your baby not a nurse come by in hours, breast feeding problems, not much help, decided to mixed feed or formula feed, no advise at all.

but the listeria risk is a new view for me, i was under the impression that the risk was huge, will need to look at proper research, if there is any...

feedmenow - I think the Listeria one is a bit of a red herring tbh as there have only been 2 cases of listeria in this country in the last 20 years and neither of those were from eating cheese and neither of them involved pregnant women.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/listeriosis/Pages/Introduction.aspx

There are some stats at the bottom of here if you are really interested in getting listeria in pregnancy.

barfox

I am with you on the nhs advice I had a leaflet stating don't drink, but should you need to do not exceed...

Why not say if you intend to consume alchohol through your preganancy do not exceed and state units and demonstrate measurements based on proof as a guidance?