shock at the drinking in pregnancy thread

[alle01]

i have been reading for the last couple of days, and posted a couple of times in this thread. i found shocking that people encourage pregnant women to drink, based on the evidence that they did and nothing happened to them, and there is no research that probes this is a risky behaviour.
well, there isn't research because it would be unethical to do research that may put at risk unborn children, but there is plenty of research that probes that alcohol is damaging in adults, and children cannot really process it until at least 17/18 yo, plenty of cases of alcohol poisoning in young adolescents as well, it is also known that the placenta does not filter alcohol, among other substances.
i would like to know what kind of benefit it is suppose to bring to the pregnancy and baby, that is so worth it, and what the difference is with people that say they smoke because the anxiety of no smoking is more damaging to the baby than the nicotine itself, or any other drug, cocaine maybe...
what is the choice, do what you can to ensure you have a healthy baby, or indulge yourself for five minutes?

OhYesIShipThat, I think that's a really sensible post. (and I'm someone who's drunk between 0-4 units a week after the 1st trimester, if that matters, I'm not a total abstainer myself).

Listeriosis associated with pregnancy is rare and, unlike in older people, the number of cases has remained roughly the same during the past decade, with an average of 18 cases a year occurring in England and Wales
From NHS choices website.
The listeria bacteria has been found in a range of chilled ?ready-to-eat? food, such as:

pre-packed sandwiches,
pâté,
butter,
soft cheeses such as Brie or Camembert or others with a similar rind,
soft blue cheese,
cooked sliced meats and
smoked salmon.

Contracting a listeriosis infection during pregnancy carries a moderately high risk of experiencing significant complications. It is estimated that 22% of pregnancy-related cases of listeriosis will result in the death of the baby.

so 22% of babies will die. and there were 18 pregnancy cases per year, in the UK. so 18 x 22% = 3.96
so 4 babaies die per year.
Is that right ?
And someone said that there was a sweden investigation and 1 baby had died.
is that correct ?

As no one appeared to read the slides I linked to earlier , here are the findings of NICE:

The group who developed new guidance assessed evidence regarding the effects of ?low to moderate? consumption (less than 1.5 units per day) and ?binge drinking? (defined as five or more drinks) for ten postnatal outcomes.

No strong evidence for any outcome of a detrimental effect of either form of alcohol consumption.

The only evidence of ?harm? associated with low-to-moderate intake was described as ?limited and poor quality? was ?possibly a slight increase in miscarriage?

?Limited poor-quality? evidence that ?binge drinking may be associated with neurodevelopmental harm?.

In most cases no association was found between drinking and postnatal outcomes.

For ?growth outcomes? it was noted of studies that ?several report a protective effect of low-to-moderate alcohol intake compared with no alcohol during pregnancy?

The NICE guidelines that recommended no drinking was that they believe that women are unable to distinguish between becoming intoxicated and having the odd glass of wine. This is the only area of medical advice that is not evidence-based, it's pure scaremongering.

And blinks I'm very sorry for your miscarriage but I seriously doubt your smoking caused it. I had one, thousands of women do, and in most cases it is not remotely related to anything we did or didn't do in pregnancy

thanks I do know the stats on listeria in pregnancy only 1 in 25,000 pregnancies affected. Still too high a risk for me, but that?s just me. All choices I make are informed and based on the fact that if anything went wrong in my pregnancy and I had gone against medical advice I personally would blame myself and not something I want to live with.

I also agree that medical advice is not always 100% correct. breast fed my first child and she still had severe eczema. also avoided peanuts during the whole pregnancy based on the medical advice at the time(know it has now changed) and my daughter has still got a life threatening peanut allergy.

thanks- i know my smoking probably didn't cause my miscarriage but i stopped anyway. not worth the risk.

I stopped too Miscarried one but not the next so who knows what the reasons are?

All this talk of 'no evidence' that 1-2 units a weeks is safe - erm, what about all the children out there who don't have FAS and whose mum's drank 1-2 units per week while pg?

I'm enjoying a small (i.e. about half a usual home-poured glass of wine) once a week and I'm sure my child won't have FAS. This is based on all the kids born to my friends and family who did exactly the same thing before me. When the mid-wife asked about drinking I told her I was drinking 1-2 units a week and she said that the advice is 0 units "just to be on the safe side" but that 1-2 is fine.

No-one is encouraging anyone to drink who doesn't want to! Jeez, you'd think pregnant women could show each other a bit of understanding and respect!

Iona, 708,000 births in the uk on average. 2009 figure. and you say 1 in 25,000 = listeria. 708,000 /25,000 = 28
but they say that there are 18 per year. so your 28 seems a bit high. are you sure its 1 in 25,000 ?

or have i got my maths wrong ?

no one is making non-drinkers drink in their pregnancies. op and Iona were unahppy that people were drinking at all. calling those mothers that did selfish and self centered.

thats a slightly different thing.

i wish people would relax about guidelines. i responded to the thread about a woman worried about a tiny bit of alcohol in her m&s ready meal.
anxious. anxiety creating. women these days are being made to be paranoid over minor risks.

i don't like that. i think we all need to calm down and relax.

i asked this before, if i missed the answer, then i am sorry.
are the guidelines to abstain altogether ?
becasue Iona says that if we don't we are :

"If you can?t stop drinking, eating brie etc or smoking for that amount of time and are happy to put your child at risk, think this is a rather selfish self-centred attitude."

so , do the guideliens say to stop drinking altogetehr. to completely stop. is that what the guidelines are ?

so the hv who says a glass a week , is o.k., is misadvising, going against the guidelines, is that right ?

if you are too selfish to give up alcohol for 9 months how are you going to manage motherhood.

is always what goes through my mind when someone speaks about drinking during pregnancy.

That is what the guidelines say Oblomov. But the NICE committee admit that there is no basis for that advice. I highly recommend you read the links I posted earlier today - it's all about how pregnancy is being increasingly medicalised and how it's taking power and control away from women rather than assuming that most of us will make informed choices which are best for our health and that of our babies.

As I posted on another thread ages ago, the biggest danger of alcohol in pregnancy is pregnant women's partners getting drunk and beating them up. But that gets no coverage at all

I haven't read the whole thread but I think posting in AIBU, expressing your "shock" at the decision of grown up, educated women to have a drink or two during their pregnancy is provocative and designed to make those of us who read the guidelines, weighed up the risks and decided that having the odd white wine spritzer was no more dangerous than crossing the road in central London feel like we've put our own selfish needs ahead of those of our unborn children. We live in nanny state where they put pictures of pregnant women drinking on the back of beer bottles and try and introduce compulsary smoking breathalisers at booking in appointments - it's control of women at its worst. I'm shocked at the number of pregnant women who baulk at the prospect of eating bagged salad or a bit of sushi but its their decision and really we should all just support our right to make independent decisions on these sorts of issues, not start threads criticising each other's choices. FGS!

"if you are too selfish to give up alcohol for 9 months how are you going to manage motherhood."

I dont think its selfishness per se . and most the PG women that indulge do for the taste not to get bladdered. as said they have made an decision that the risk is liveable with

nice judgy post there eh

Gigantaur believe it or not there is more to being a good mother than being a saintly teetotaller!

bewler - this isn't in AIBU.

Ok, my mistake but doesn't change how I feel about the implicit criticism in starting this sort of thread.

i am a little surprised by the "you worry about your kid and we'll worry about ours" repsonses.

is it ok if an abusive parent says that to social services?

My post was very judgmental. i judge expectant mothers who drink or smoke.

Gigantaur - did you read what I posted? That there are better outcomes for babies whose mothers drink lightly than who abstain altogether. Frankly I think it's disgusting that you're undermining your child's health by not drinking.

Please don't judge expectant mothers who drink. There is no need to. You may see someone drinking the only drink she is going to have during her entire pregnancy.

When I was pg I didn't feel the need to do any research or weigh up any risks or listen to anyone's advice on drinking alcohol in pregnancy. I just knew that my couple of drinks a week (after about 20 weeks when the morning sickness began to wear off) were not going to harm my babies.

If drinking at that level was harmful then a huge percentage of babies would have been born with FAS before these ridiculous current guidelines came in.

Its fine to judge anyone who smokes during pg though .

You can't please everyone so the best thing to do is what you think is right for your child. Some people clearly think its irresponsible and selfish to drink while pregnant. Others feel equally strongly about mothers who formula feed or let their kids have dummies till they're 5 or watch tv for hours at a time or eat wotsits for breakfast - the list is endless! In the absence of abusive behaviour (which, come on people, this is not!) people should live and let live. Otherwise what is the alternative? Locking women up for the duration of their pregnancies to ensure no booze passes their lips?

...and may I quickly say that I do not rank formula feeding alongside letting your kid have wotsits for breakfast, its just an example of parenting which generates different opinions..

tribunalgoer - I beg your pardon? WTF is up with the name calling?

What has me asking you to provide the link to what your saying got to do with being lazy? I wanted to read exactly what you read so that I could be clear on where you were coming from, because to be honest I think thats nonsense to say that alcohol actually benefits a childs health.
What does you going to a tribunal on friday have to do with the me asking you to post a link? Im certainly not on here to agrue with people or to be bloody insulted by someone who loves to talk but doesnt want to back it up with the evidence, and rather than provide the evidence is going to insult me. Do you really think that was called for I asked you politely and was in no way threatening what you said was only asking for the proof.

What is it with people on bloody forums, getting aggy and attitudey towards other people and name calling, Its like being surrounded by school children.

For you to smack me with lazy, is histerical considering im still at 36weeks getting up at 6am to feed my 6 horses and doing them 3 times a day. Walking my four dogs, still being pretty active.
But its cool if you can't answer a simple question with out insulting someone then it pretty much sums you up.

Honestly, OP, have you really got nothing better to do than wear your judgey knickers all day?
Lighten up. It really is none of your business what we all do in our pregnancies.
You can be as 'shocked' as you like, it's not going to make a blind bit of difference to anyone else.