shock at the drinking in pregnancy thread

[alle01]

i have been reading for the last couple of days, and posted a couple of times in this thread. i found shocking that people encourage pregnant women to drink, based on the evidence that they did and nothing happened to them, and there is no research that probes this is a risky behaviour.
well, there isn't research because it would be unethical to do research that may put at risk unborn children, but there is plenty of research that probes that alcohol is damaging in adults, and children cannot really process it until at least 17/18 yo, plenty of cases of alcohol poisoning in young adolescents as well, it is also known that the placenta does not filter alcohol, among other substances.
i would like to know what kind of benefit it is suppose to bring to the pregnancy and baby, that is so worth it, and what the difference is with people that say they smoke because the anxiety of no smoking is more damaging to the baby than the nicotine itself, or any other drug, cocaine maybe...
what is the choice, do what you can to ensure you have a healthy baby, or indulge yourself for five minutes?

Principle - check out the list of NICE findings I posted about an hour ago

what continues to annoy me is the people that accuses us PG drinkers of being @selfish@ and comparing it to child abuse

we have decided the risks of having the odd glass are low. Its not like I'm down Ritzys caning the WKD and binge drinking

"The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists conducted a study of over 400,000 women, all of whom had consumed alcohol during pregnancy. No case of fetal alcohol syndrome occurred and no adverse effects on children were found when consumption was under 8.5 drinks per week.

am actually going to stop reading this section now as the judgy attitudes are just annoying me

Erm, leave it up to women to make sensible choices is my view on this. The official guidelines say 1-2 units once or twice a week. Yeah, maybe there is a tiny risk in doing even that but then there is a risk in everything in life, including walking out your front door in the morning.

Alleo1, some might consider your post a tad poorly informed and judgmental, including me.

You see, I'm interested in fighting for pregnant women's RIGHTS to be 'selfish' ie do things they find enjoyable and have assessed to be low enough risk to be acceptable. Because pregnant women are people, and should not be denied rights that people have. The fact that women have wombs has always been used to deny them full human rights in the past (centuries back, it was said that teaching women to read would 'dry up their organs' ie give them autonomy).

I started the original post just to see what other people were doing. Not to ask for advice and certainly not to judge anyone else and the decisions that they are making.

Really I think it is ridiculous to have started this post simply to say how 'shocked' you are.

holy god

this is a site used by women who advise other women based on their own experiences
the vast majority of pregnant women will always do their very best whilst pregnant

my gp recommended the odd glass of wine and that seemed a very sensible approach

moderation seems to be the key

pregnancy and baby nazis are always trying to make up for something lacking in their own lives imo

op perhaps spend some time reflecting upon your own choices rather than being shocked at sensible propositions on a non professional website

I have been thinking about these threads a lot over the past couple of days, I am 25 weeks and since about 14 weeks have enjoyed the odd spritzer, shandy or even beer around once a week (sometimes twice a week some times none).

I have been soul searching as to whether I am being selfish or not. I may be kidding myself but I don't think I am, here is my reasoning....

I dramatically cut down my caffeine intake at the beginning of this pregnancy because I drink far too much coffee and don't eat meat, so was advised by midwife caffeine effects iron absorption. I now have decaff Tea (most of the time)and Coffee (all the time) but still the odd chocolate bar and even more rarely a can of Dr Pepper (which I only ever fancy when pregnant).

Yesterday I mistakenly drank a regular coffee and felt really off for a couple of hours, shaky and a bit edgy: it seemed like the baby felt the same( the same happens to a much lesser extent with sugary, caffeinated soft drinks).

Am I being thick or does that show that in my case a coffee affects my baby and I more than half a glass of Chablis with a bit of soda?

OhYesIShipThat - you make a good point that everyone should be entitled to express their views on any given thread and come at it from both sides.

It's been nice to see some posters come on and say that they have abstained fully as they feel that's right for them, and are not happy with the risk. But they also say it's the right decision for them, and they wouldn't expect everyone to do likewise.

I think the problem a lot of us have is with those who come on and try to guilt and shame the rest of us - telling us we're selfish, self-centred and won't cope with motherhood. Can you see the difference between those two approaches?

I also note that Blinks has continually maintained that even low-moderate drinking can be harmful. I can't remember who now (sorry ), but someone posted a link which says that 1.5 units a day equates to low-moderate drinking.

That is 10.5 units a week, which is well above the guidelines for drinking in pregnancy, and well above what pretty much everyone is saying they drink on this thread.

Most people are saying they drink 1-2 units once or twice a week - if that. So, in fact, most of us are in agreement - even if we say we drink low-moderate amounts, what we're actually saying is we drink less than that.

Not that it's anyone else's business, of course! But maybe this might help calm down some of the more self-righteous posters on this thread - in fact, the amounts drunk by most pregnant women fall considerably below what constitutes even low-moderate.

Maybe you can all sleep better tonight, with that knowledge, since the judgy ones amongst you seem to feel so entitled to know about, comment on and frown upon our behaviour!! You can, in fact, unclench a little bit.

jjkm - I was quoting from the NICE findings which say that there are slightly better outcomes for babies whose mothers drink lightly during pregnancy. I suspect that is stress-related more than anything else. Being massively anxious about what you should and shouldn't be doing is much more detrimental to your and your baby's health than the odd glass of wine. I know women who've been advised to keep on smoking at a low level by their MWs because the stress caused by giving up altogether was thought to be more harmful.

And that's what I find so hugely irritating about this tired old topic. Nothing is black and white and judging other mothers for smoking and drinking is really a bit sad.

I don't like the acqusation of being selfish.
Thats the bit that always gets me. Am I ? probably. Isn't everyone a bit. You could say the same on every discussion on Mn and that would be the end of that thread.

Iona and now Gigantaur said this. Its not really a valid argument. Every food, every action you ever did could thus then be considered so.

I do parenting things that none of my friends do. I am happy with those choices. Some of them did suit me mostly.
Mind you, I am not one of those that easily feels guilty.
I choose to work part time. Am at work now. On MN. Guilt ? Nope. I do it becasue its good for me. Selfish, kids wise ? well yes, i guess so. Guilt ? No-sir-eeeeeeeeee.

I get really bored of the anecdotal trotted out to combat sound scientific evidence. It just harks back to the 'my grandad smoked 40 a day and lived to 90' banal crap frequently trotted out in the smoking argument.
To be honest my midwife phrased it like this 'alcohol is a metabolic poison, and it doesn't add anything you or baby's diet will need, so why bother'.
It is only 9 months, and it's only booze for goodness sake, is it honestly important that you can't give it up? I drank like a fish in the past but even I figured, well I'm not building a new human being every day so I might as give it my best shot. Am still not drinking more than a unit or so a week now as I'm still breastfeeding my 11 month old and only then when I'm sure I have a good six or so hours before he'll want a swig. Personally I found it a useful first lesson in putting someone else's welfare ahead of mine!

Poppet - the evidence, from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, seems to be that there are no adverse effects in children whose mothers had up to 8.5 drinks a week.

Where is this "sound scientific evidence" that low alcohol consumption is a problem?

Poppet45 if your comment re: anecdotals was aimed at me: my post was a question rather than just a statement.I am genuinely interested if alcohol that had no discernible effects on me or my unborn child would have effected us more than caffeine which clearly had a physical effect on both of us. If you are able please explain as I would never do anything that I thought would harm much wanted and already adored DC2.

Also, surely your midwife's sensible and correct advice about drinking in pregnancy could be rolled out to cover a lot of what is consumed during pregnancy?

The chips I had with my pub lunch last weekend, and the Solero I had yesterday were not needed by my baby or me, so why did I bother?

There is no sound scientific advice Poppet. The government's recommendation that pregnant women don't drink is not evidence based. I have posted several times on this thread - please read my posts.

if you dont want to drink, fine

but dont be so fucking self rightous about it

Actually Giddyup it wasn't aimed at you. But I did find your post justifying the use of one psychoactive substance by stating that another different one had definitely affected the baby to be a bit odd. I'm not surprised you felt a different reaction in the baby to the coffee than to a glass of wine. Caffiene is a stimulant, alcohol can act as a depressant. As such in large enough quantities it will reduce your babies movement and activity levels. As for the chips and Solero... well at least they offer vitamin c, some nice fats and the vitamins and minerals from the fruit and veg. Any vitamins in wine are likely to be denatured because of its alcohol content.
Finally apologies to the not so invisable Ladybiscuit. There is no scientific evidence to the total ban, but there is sound scientific evidence that alcohol to some degree or other is harmful to the fetus, at some level which will depend on the gestation and indeed the individual mother. I don't see us arguing what a safe level of e, speed, coke or cannabis is for each woman? We don't bother because why would you take the risk when you don't have to use those substances. Do you really NEED a glass of wine to relax? Really? You can rake through journals to justify that socially acceptable treat, although if you were entirely at ease with the choice I suspect you wouldn't need to. And why not do a quick pubmed search on the other chemicals I listed above? Some of those haven't actually been proven to be harmful to a fetus, unlike alcohol.

I get really bored of all the 'well, I gave it up, why can't youuuuuu??' type comments.

Good for you, now get just get on with it, and let the rest of us get on with our lives. We're the ones who have to live with our decisions.

If i knew someone that drunk 8.5 units every week when not pregnant i'd be worried they were a alcoholic during pregnancy!!

soo i dont agree with drinking during pregnancy, however each to their own, but all these women who are saying it's their own choice if they want to drink, yes it is, but the baby doesn't have a say! plus all this shit about breathing in car fumes and dont complain, that is unavoidable, taking a drink is a choice!

Did you read the links I posted Poppet?

Iona06 - your comment completely confusese me. If you knew someone who drank 8.5 units a week when not pregnant you would think that they were an alcoholic during pregnancy? What does that even mean?

That they would drink the same during pregnancy? That they would drink more during pregnacy? You're not making any sense.

Iona06 -

Oh, and I don't NEED a glass of wine to relax; I WANT a glass to enjoy - every now and then!

I love wine - it is the drink of the Gods, and is made to be enjoyed with food, so if I feel like the odd glass within the realms of what is deemed safe, I shall have one.

Does anyone really have a problem with me, as a faceless random off t'internet, doing that? And if so, why does it bother you so much?

I consider alcohol in pregnancy to be feto toxic. Not a big deal for me to go without for a while but equally don't have a problem if others want to enjoy a glass or two every now and then.

I agree that there can be a bit of a 'mob mentality' here on mn, which can be a shame as we rarely get a balanced argument.

Still entertaining/interesting to read, mind.

i was referencing moonuits comment-

'Poppet - the evidence, from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, seems to be that there are no adverse effects in children whose mothers had up to 8.5 drinks a week.'

When pregnant it is the mother choice to how much risk they expose there baby too, so on medical advice poppet has decided to not expose her unborn baby to the risk of alcohol, but there are now 4 posts disagreeing with her. Why is it the drinkers choice to drink is ok, but for the women who's persaonal choice not to drink are the ones all being personnaly abused.

Thank you Poppet45 I was not expecting a stimulant and a depressant to effect us in the same way.I am new to forums and it seems my typed conversational style is as garbled as my spoken one-Damn!

I was surprised that something "allowed" in pregnancy (coffee) would effect me so much after abstinence whereas something else I had abstained from which some people have a problem with would not effect me at all.

I was aware that alcohol in large quantities would effect the baby and suppress its movements, which is why I would never drink more than a tiny amount of alcohol when pregnant.

Also, if us preggos' do not find articles supporting what we state in these debates we are told what we are saying isn't true, when we do it is cited as showing we don't feel comfortable with our own choices.

The news about Soleros and chips is however most welcome and I will take it as gospel without feeling the need to debate it further!