Please can someone explain? Will we pay if we leave EU without a deal?

[HappydaysArehere]

With all this talk of billions of pounds which we are supposed to owe if we leave and talk of continuing to pay after we leave, I am in the dark. If we walk away with no deal will we pay anything like the amounts talked about? If we are able to do that surely the EU will be big losers as well as us! I am at a loss. Grateful for your input as I am bewildered. I voted to remain but must say the shenanigans being played by the EU are showing them as more like the Mafia than a democratic institution.

@M4dad.

Those questions were for you. Go on.

We need enlightenment on how WTO rules are going to improve our economic situation where our GDP is 30% of imports and exports of good and services (source: data.oecd.org/trade/trade-in-goods-and-services.htm)

Those questions were for you. Go on

Who the heck do you think you are?

*The US operations in Asia were winding up post-Hiroshima and post-Nagasaki. The Japanese had surrendered unconditionally following the virtually total destruction of two of their cities in 2 single bombing runs.

This lead to the unleashing of the US war machine on the western front. This is the single greatest factor in the west's favour in WW2.*

I might be reading this wrong but I don’t understand how that can be possible. The war in Europe was over before Hiroshima and Nagasaki I don’t see how US involvement on the Western Front could have increased as a result nor how it could have been decisive in winning the war in Europe. The US did have enormous firepower and technological advantage, that is true but the German decision to invade Russia was an enormous miscalculation. They hadn’t accounted for the problems they would face fighting in the Russian winter and they ended up fighting an unnecessarily draining war on their Eastern front that could have been entirely avoided. It sapped German manpower and resources.

Bold fail

Um, Japan declared unconditional surrender on 15th August 1945. The bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were detonated on 6th and 8th August 1945.
VE Day was 8th May 1945.
The US were still fighting the Pacific rim.
Operation Barbarossa and the 2nd front in Russia was the single most calamitous error on the part of Hitler. The Red Army was originally decimated partly due to Stalinist purges of its officers, but the victory at Stalingrad was the pivotal point of WW2.
Shameful rewriting of history.

@M4dad.

I'm a well-educated white woman who speaks her mind and asks pertinent questions. A nightmare for tribalist Brexiteers full of hot air.

I see I've stumped you. Or should I say 'Trumped'.

Well, go on. Give us an informed and educated reply. Or just keep your mouth shut if you can't maintain a fact-based conversation.

Sorry, that was to hiddenmnetter who appears to have inverted the dates for VE and VJ Day, quite apart from all the rest.

I'm a well-educated white woman who speaks her mind and asks pertinent questions. A nightmare for tribalist Brexiteers full of hot air

What you actually are is obnxious, a common trait with Remainers I've found.

You haven't stumped me on anything I just don't respond will being talked to like a dog.

History lessons are great but can we refocus the chat to Brexit which relates to our future?

@M4dad

Well, I hadn't thought of you being a dog, just a typical older white male who doesn't know his elbow from his a*se as most Brexit voters are.

And here's the factual proof. Uneducated and mostly dumb. We deserve what is about to happen to us. Mate.

What have I said that is "hot air" ? Go on.

Yes, another Remainer that thinks posting a graph wins a debate, how predictably arrogant.

Going back to the OP’s question, I really don’t think a no deal Brexit is actually an option. The Brexit deal needs to cover the divorce bill, citizens rights and the Irish border as a minimum. Not reaching an agreement on those things would be a nightmare. Trade deals are completely separate to that and I think ending up with no deal on trade is looking increasing likely butwalking away without a trade deal would be irrelevant to the divorce bill. If we agree the divorce bill and then refuse to pay it if we don’t get the trade deal we want I don’t think it will do us any favours in the long run. As someone said upthread, what other countries would want to waste time negotiating with us if we don’t stick to the terms we agree?

@M4dad

I'm not sure why we haven't discussed what the EU owes the UK in terms of shared assets after decades of contributing billions of pounds.

Need to DEDUCT liabilities. Mate. And include contingent liabilities in those. Mate

And here's a graph to counter your tosh about relative GDP growth.

Olivia.....you have cheered me up . It’s like being back at high school. Are you going to shoulder-barge m4dad in the halls later!?

@M4dad

I love it. We are arrogant when we present facts and research that offend your cliched view of your tribal views.

I used to think the term Brexshitter was harsh. Unfortunately all too appropriate.

dumbledores apprentice

You are quite correct- I am wrong on that front- (please excuse the faux pas- I completed my studies some 15 years ago and had confused the timeline). However the rest of what I was saying holds true; (even if it wasn't the Japanese surrender that permitted the US arrival on the western front) the US did transfer a huge portion of the military power to the western front and this drove the west's capacity to attack German lines.

The USAAF was launching large-scale (1000+ planes) bombing runs against Germany from 1943 onwards (in a mimic of their tactics against Tokyo). Soviet attempts to counter German aggression were unsuccessful until after the Germans had moved troops from the east to the west in response to the invasion of Normandy.

It is certainly true that it was a blunder for Hitler to invade Russia, and that Germans suffered heavy losses in the east, but that was a lot more to do with the brutality of the weather (as well, to be fair, the scorched earth policy of the fleeing peasants) than Russian resistance. The Russians had a role in the collapse of Nazi-ism, but Europe owes a much greater debt to the USA on that score.

@tamatoa

I'll tell this lot gets me going with their complete BS.

Speaking of shoulder-barging: Would love to get these knuckleheads on a tatami for a few rounds ... Maybe knocking some sense into them would do us some good. Really would do me some good.

*I'll tell this lot gets me going with their complete BS8

What have I said that's BS?

@tamatoa

I guess you've heard the latest outrageousness: an MP sending letters to universities asking which profs teach about Brexit and the EU. We are turning into a policed propaganda state.

We are arrogant when we present facts

Your silly little graph was unreadable

Would love to get these knuckleheads on a tatami for a few rounds ... Maybe knocking some sense into them would do us some good

Are you drunk?

What have I said that is "hot air" ? Go on

All of it. Every word.

@m4dad

I think I was clear: GDP for the UK is the LOWEST in the EU. You presented it as not being so. BS.

If you can get access to assets without creditors having a chunk first then you're a robber baron hero. DEDUCT LIABILITIES INCL CONTINGENT LIABILITIES when you look at a share of assets. again, you presented BS.

Do you know what a liability is? Contingent also? have you ever looked at a balance sheet? Double entry accounting - ever heard of it? Debits and credits?

@M4dad.

Am I drunk? I should be with you lot. You could easily drive one to drink with the nonsense you spout. But I'm not.

I'll find a better version of the Brexit voter graph.

melassa

You are quite right I got the dates confused. I stand by the overall argument however as it was certainly US assistance that drove the the military success of the allies in the west.

I agree the victory of the Russians at Stalingrad preventing access to the oil fields prevented the Germans from solidifying their hold on the eastern front. However it was the US lead invasion of Normandy that lead to Hitler stripping his other units to reinforce the western front after he declared it would be a disaster for the allies to gain a foothold (directive 51 or something?? I can't remember).

I am not saying that the Russians did nothing- they (eventually) held back the German advance. I'm just arguing that the US lead invasion was a more significant problem for the Germans.