Trump (Part 3)

[claig]

The last one filled up quickly.

More discussion on the significance of Trump, Trumpism and the Trumpsters and what it all means for Blairites.

Succinct and to the point, user. I can't disagree.

Waste of a good thread, spammed with drivel.

Good article Kaija, thanks.
I get how lies are easily believed when the evidence against them is complicated or hard to find, but it's harder to understand when the record (of, for eg, forum comments) is so easily available.

If you keep them coming thick and fast, nobody has the time or energy to check. By the time each lie has been proved false, everyone has moved on to the next one, and the more outrageous the better. It becomes so exhausting to distinguish fact from fiction that people revert to gut feelings, which are very easy to manipulate through for example the repetition and reinforcement of simple slogans. This has been the big political discovery of 2016. See Kahneman on this, and AC Grayling's article here http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/articles/howyouucanturnnalieeintoaatruthaccordinggtotheesinisterbrexittplaybook114795738

Not managed to plow my way through all the threads, but for me, the way he did business in Scotland, based on lies and broken promises seems to be an indication of a corrupt man, who will do anything to get his way, never mind the little people who stand in his way. Promising jobs and investments that never transpired, building walls to block views of those who refused to sell shows his pettiness. For the record, I've never voted Blair, am feminist who doesnt believe woman should have to share spaces with men, and absolutely believe there are issues with immigration and cultural differences. Doesn't mean trump is the answer, or that he gives a shit about The People. If he did, he wouldn't have spent so much of his life riding rough shod over so many to line his own pockets.

"It becomes so exhausting to distinguish fact from fiction that people revert to gut feelings, which are very easy to manipulate through for example the repetition and reinforcement of simple slogans."

Also, if the non-stop message is that everything you read is untrue, you may start to believe the only person you can trust is your leader. And then they can tell you anything. Gaslighting.

Yes, exactly that, Swedish.

DetMcnulty completely agree.
Things have go a bit heated over the last two threads, and unfortunately the conversation has drifted away from Trump.
I agree that although he does not yet have a political record, it is possible to see how he may try to behave as POTUS from his record in business.
He certainly has form for bullying behaviour (the Balmedie golf course stuff was awful but far from the worst of it).
He bears a grudge too. I assume from your post you already know about the whole wind farm thing, he's wasted no time in making that a priority again now:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/donald-trump-used-his-meeting-with-nigel-farage-to-bring-up-wind-farms-a7431336.html
Luckily I think he's overestimating Farage's influence on the Scottish government. It does imply though that he really has not intention of keeping his business interests separate from his power as POTUS.

I am trying to remain optimistic by hoping that he might not find it as easy to get exactly what he wants as president as he thinks!

I have always tried to see other points of view, and have family and friends with very different political opinions to me, but I do find it really, really difficult to see this portrayed as some great victory of "the people" over "the elites".

If he can't or won't keep his interests separate he can be impeached. I give him 2 years at the most until this happens.

joangray38, What will the conspiro-nuts do if that happens though?
Although I am sure many voters will become disillusioned with him when he starts to fail on his promises, there will be a core who will never be convinced that is anything less than heroic - any failings will be attributed to handy scapegoats.

If he is impeached, I worry that a lot of people will believe it's some conspiracy (probably blamed on a minority), and I don't know what the repercussions of that will be.

Yep Squishy, I have family in the area who have been appalled by what's happened. The wind farm is another example of him trying to stomp his feet and bully his way into getting what he wants, despite what the people who actually live there want. I'm no fan of Alex Salmon at all, but even he regrets dealing with Trump. Hopefully Nicola will stand firm (I've particularly enjoyed the Scottish female leader's description of him).

I do hope we are proved wrong though, and that he will be less divisive and more willing to take on other points of view than he's previously done. I've spent a lot of time in the States, and used to live in California, would hate to see things take a turn for worse, particularly when it comes to woman's and LGB rights. The supreme court is a worry for me, and how that will shape things. Filling his cabinet with establishment figures, alt right figures, billionaires and tax cuts for the top 1% don't fill me with much hope that he's not in it for himself though.

I think it's very telling that his own City didn't vote for him, but then New Yorkers tend to be good at spotting a bullshitter..

I dont think he has an anti-muslim stance. He has an anti-possible terrorist stance and wants better checking of persons entering.

And yet, he's a second ammendment supporter. Whites killing seems to be ok.
It's just a problem when Muslims are a risk.

More discussion on the significance of Trump, Trumpism and the Trumpsters and what it all means for Blairites.

Funny that claig then complains of supposed insults toward her, when she reduces people disagreeing with her to "Blairites" on her first post.
And I don't mean it on these threads, but society at large too.

Also, it's understandable that some people accuse others of being paid agitators. We know it's going on. Sadly, the evidence points towards Trump supporters and Brexit defenders.

What we've been seeing is that a certain group tends to accuse the other of insulting them and being rude, and they seem to think such unfounded accusations will shut down debate.
Also, we won, so shut up. It's pathetic, really. I'm sure you're better than that. After all, you're all for free speech and freedom, right?

'Funny that claig then complains of supposed insults toward her, when she reduces people disagreeing with her to "Blairites" on her first post.'

Blairite is not an insult, many of our Parliament are Blairites, as are many of Labour's 172, although many deny it profusely for reasons that the people understand well. Many of the BBC's top brasss are Blairites. They are everywhere. It is true that they haven't got any common sense, but that is not something that is unique to the Blairite, that is a feature shared by much of our political class with the notable exception of Trump's best pal, Nigel Farage, whom Trump says many people think would do a good jobs as British Ambassador to the US.

If you are a Blairite, wear it.

But in a free country, the majority of us (non-Blairites) are allowed to take the piss out of Blair, his hand gestures, his mockney glottal stops, and his band of Blairites.

Trump has put the wind up the Blairites and that is just one more reason to celebrate Trump's victory. Nigel Farage was laughing his head off in Manhattan, blair no longer "understands" what is happening in politics. Happy days!

"These days are ours
Happy and free
Oh happy days"

'Also, we won, so shut up'

No one has even reorted any of the smears about fascism. Just don't sully this thread with your race baiting. I support Farage and Trump and do so proudly. I dislike bullies who try to smear me or my right to vote how I please. I dislike the Blairite.

'And yet, he's a second ammendment supporter. Whites killing seems to be ok. '

More race baiting. Is it only whites who are allowed to bear arms in America? Are black people, Latinos and Muslims not allowed to bear arms under the Second Amendment? Does the Second Amendment only apply to white people? Do only white people kill people with firearms in America?

Do you work for the Orifice of Tony Blair or something?

Clag, we've never "talked" before, but I have always seen your passionate posts, and enjoyed them, but am not understanding the blairite obsession. He's irrelevant and has been for years, the uk is on to its 3 rd pm since he was in power. Not liking trump does not make one a Blair (or indeed a labour) fan.

'but am not understanding the blairite obsession'

It is a joke, my sense of humour. That is why I use the "Orifice of Tony Blair" instead of the "Office of Tony Blair" whatever that pompous thing is and the "No Faith Foundation" instead of the "Faith Foundation".

I dislike Blair and the anti free speech agenda that he and his band of Blairites represent, so I enjoy taking the piss out of him and the political class who support him, not individual Labour voters (because I once voted for Blair). Blair is like a pantomime figure, just mention his name and the public "boo". Ben Elton used to do the same about "Thatch" in his comedy and I laughed at that even while supporting "Thatch".

Well I think the same about "Blair". I like to mock that arrogant, high and mighty tosser and his "Office of Tony Blair" because I am with the people and he is a servant of the elites which is why he is not "irrelevant" because they have to roll Blair out any time the Establishment is being challenged such as when Corbyn, whom i like, was rocking the system by having the support of most Labour members and the Establishment phoned Blair up, revitalised from his Dracula Crypt, asked to remove his black cloak and put on a colour coordinated suit and tie that a spinner picked for him, and asked for his "help". That is how desperate the Establishment was. They need Blair's "help", even though they know half the country, to be generous, dislike the arrogant spinner and refer to him as Bliar.

Blair said that Labour members need a "heart transplant" if they wanted to vote for Corbyn.

The Establishment also used Blair and their usual band of helpers, Izzard and Sir Bob, during the Referendum on the EU. They hoped that these examples of their Great and Good would fool the people to vote for the IMF and the OECD. But it didn't work.

Now that Trump has won and Establishments across the entire world are in meltdown, the Establishment has threatened us with Blair's return.

I will continue to do my duty, as every free British citizen with their head screwed on should, to take the piss out of the mockney muppet, Blair, and his pompous Orifice of Tony Blair.

And it has got nothing to do with Blair personally. I am sure he is a funny guy and good to get on with. I would much rather be in a room with Blair than with Gordon Brown.

It was what Blair represents, I think Blair is just an Oxbridge PPE pupptet, a bag carrier for the elites, a servant of theirs, serving the spinning elites with their policy to con us and fool us and remove our liberties with their DNA databases, biometric ID cards and political correctness that is cleverly designed by them to remove our free speech.

If they ever succeed, all our liberties will be gone. So keep taking the piss out of them, just like Trump took the piss out of the Establishment and elites, the "losers" and "puppets", as he rightly called them, so that people don't take them seriously, vote for them and have their free speech and liberty removed by them.

I genuinely don't think anybody other than Tony Blair thinks that people in the UK would pay any attention to what he says. I'm no longer in the UK, so not as up to speed with Corbyn, other than what I see on here.

Back to Trump though, do you not see any parallels with how he treats other in business, if he cares so much about the people, why is it ok to maker promises he has no intention of keeping, not pay what he owes, or drag contractors through court, defraud them with Trump university, spitefully erect walls to block views and bring house price values down when he doesn't get his own way? Makes no sense to me. As does tax cuts for the top 1%, that is not going to benefit anyone apart from the Elite, so he can't be that against them. If you're already a multi billionaire and not trickling the wealth down, are you suddenly going to change your mind with an extra billion in your pocket?

I have zero issue with anyone taking the piss out of Blair. Taking the piss out of Trump doesn't make me a Blairite though.

The time to oppose Blair was 2003. Where were you then? Still supporting him? You seem to have a bit of a history of backing leaders who went on to do monstrous harm.

'Back to Trump though, do you not see any parallels with how he treats other in business, if he cares so much about the people, why is it ok to maker promises he has no intention of keeping, not pay what he owes, or drag contractors through court, defraud them with Trump university, '

I see that as a positive. Trump is ruthless, he is a top businessman, no one takes him for a ride, he bilked the bankers, he is tough as nails. I think that is exactly what is needed to sort the crooked elites out, "the corrupt global establishment" and all their servants and "bag carriers" who have robbed, ripped off, spun and lied to the people with their financial scams, globalisation offshoring of their jobs and their phoney humanitarian wars for oil and profit, and their supposed inability to defeat Isis. As Trump says

"We can't beat anybody. We can't beat Isis. Give me a break"

The fact that Trump ripped off some contractors is a positive for me, because he is going to rip the elites off and take them to the cleaners which is why they are so petrified of him and why all their "media teams" are working flat out on every TV channel to smear him as a "racist" which is their only line of defence to fool the people. But he slayed their "political correctness" and said "the emperor has no clothes". They are powerless against him.

As Roger Stone, Trump's friend, said

"I have known Trump for 40 years, he is as tough as nails. Believe me, after Manhattan real estate, Putin is a pushover"

Everything that Trump learned in business, all the ruthless things he had to do with contractors etc, will serve him well as he now works for the people and takes the elites and all their puppets down, one by one.

Trump is on our side, he is with Nigel Farage, who is hated by them. Trump is the biggest, baddest son of a gun they have ever come across, grab the popcorn, enjoy the fun. They didn't teach about someone like Trump on a PPE course. Trump is going to change the entire world and very fast and for the benefit of the people, not the elites.

And because Trump is as unpolitically correct as it is possible to get, Farage x 100, he will end political correctness and end the elite's trick and plan to take our free speech from us. Trump will ensure that we in Europe remain free and that our sovereignty can never again be handed to a foreign, unaccountable, unelected bunch of bureaucrats who make laws that impact us for the benefit of global banks.

They will never remove our free speech as long as Trump is in charge.

'spitefully erect walls to block views and bring house price values down when he doesn't get his own way?'

Yes, he is ruthless, he is tough, he doesn't care, but I don't care either because that is what it needs in order to defeat the elites and that is the real issue for the people as a whole. I don't care about Trump's golf courses and his windmills, i wish Trump luck in defeating the "corrupt global establishment" because that is the thing that is slowly removing our sovereignty, our freedom and our free speech.

'As does tax cuts for the top 1%, that is not going to benefit anyone apart from the Elite'

Yes that will benefit them, but he is cutting taxes for everybody. I think Americans earning under $45000 will pay no tax at all. Businesses will have their taxes cut, so business will boom and jobs will be created. I am for that, I don't care if Bill Gates gets a few extra millions with a tax cut.

"not going to benefit anyone apart from the Elite, so he can't be that against them"

He is against them rigging the system, removing liberties, forming cartels, creating monopolies and ripping the people off. He is not against people getting rich fairly through hard work and business. That, after all, is the American Dream, which Trump said was dead but which he will bring back.

These Oxbridge PPE socialists who support Fidel Castro and Che Guevara are against business, because they are merely servants of the "corrupt global establishment" which seeks to control the people, stifle their job opportunites via offshoring of their jobs and "free trade globalised competition", and remove their free speech to dissent and say they "need a heart transplant" if they want something different like Corbyn.

Trump is the opposite, for business, for jobs, for freedom and free speech and opposed to their "political correctness" which is their control technique. Trump is for the American Dream and that is for people to get rich and be free, so he doesn't care if elites make money as long as they aren't rigging the system and ripping the people.

'If you're already a multi billionaire and not trickling the wealth down, are you suddenly going to change your mind with an extra billion in your pocket?'

They all spend their money in the end, on planes, on cars, on wine, on food, on golf courses, on islands, on holidays, and on business. It will all recirculate and create jobs for people.

'Taking the piss out of Trump doesn't make me a Blairite though.'

I never said you were a Blairite. Go ahead take teh piss out of Trump. I take the piss out of Trump too, but I still love Trump. I can do both.

'Blair was 2003. Where were you then? Still supporting him? '

No, I ws supporting the Tories. Releuctantly, because they were Establishment Oxbridge idiots, but what other choice was there?

Or in other words he's a crook and a bully, and that's just fine with you.

And it's fine to rip off and bully "the little people" because that's just business?